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Alright, right now the bane of my 40k existence comes in the form of one or more large squads of BTs led by a Chaplain and Cenobyte Servitors. Because the squads are led by Chappies and because they have the Servitors in there, every time I kill an enemy model, they can move from 4 to 9 inches in whatever direction my opponent chooses. The unfortunate result is that I am very effectively denied any opportunity to charge my enemy. Which on the converse means that he is always the one charging me with two even more unfortunate effects -
1. He gets to re-roll about a bazillion to-hit rolls every time he assaults, and . . .
2. My blood claws are very effectively dealt out of the picture. If BCs don't get the assault, they are just second rate CC troops that die very easily, especially because my opponent is rolling 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound against them (not to mention re-rolling the failed to hits) because of a BT vow he chose.
Throw in there, as well, the Holy Orb of Antioch, and my guys are just getting creamed.
The last game we played I was able to deal with one of the large squads (15 troops) by concentrating all fire upon it in the first few turns, reducing it to about half size before it saw any action. It still took out a full squad. And then the second squad of his took out all my other squads with the help of a THIRD squad that popped out of a LRC.
It ended up a tie because I was able to get his second huge squad below half strength and I had half a dreadnought left and a full long fang pack left versus his half a squad and whole squad. Fortunately for me my Long Fangs toasted the LRC before it had a chance to fire.
So how would you counter the BT ability to completely control the assault phase of the game? Obviously massive firepower works, but where do Grey Hunters (or other tactical squads) fit into it? If they are close enough to rapid fire, he is close enough to assault and rip me to shreds. If they fire just once, hoping to charge themselves, he will just move out of range and then still assault the next turn . . .
. . . help!
"There will never be enough peace in the universe unless first there is enough war." - Farseer Eleuflin
Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags
Wags, I don't have much to offer, but here is one important thing to note: with the Chaplain, when the unit makes a Righteous Zeal move, they don't get to move in "whatever direction [he] chooses", he still has to move towards one of the enemy (your) units (page 32 BT Codex). Therefore, he can't just Zeal move away from you and out of Rapid Fire or Assault range. He's got to move toward one of your units, and if they're all generally on one side of the board there should be no reason why you can't shoot at him for a few rounds, attrit his forces while he Zeals into range, then you assault him with one of your hard hitting units.
Another trick: Instead of always going with Blood Claws for your assault troops, take Grey Hunters with bolt pistols and CCWs and attach Ragnar Blackmane to them. Ragnar grants the unit he joins the same +2 attacks on the charge, so the Grey Hunters will all have 4 attacks on the charge (just like Blood Claws), but with a higher Weapon Skill. You can still put two Power Fists in the pack, and squeeze in another one if you add a Wolf Guard Pack Leader (who gets 5 attacks on the charge) and Ragnar himself gets 7 attacks on the charge with a Master Crafter Frost Blade!!!
Best of luck,
Either wipe them out with shooting entirely, a Vindicator is a "fluffy" and effective SW choice for that I think.
Or don't shoot them at all and get the Assault in, fewer non re-rolled attacks are not nearly as scary as a full on charge.
Alternatively sit in cover with Bolter/C.C.W Grey Hunters, Bolter him on the way in and then strike first with true grit from the cover.
a good way to kill marines are missile launchers, plasma weaponry, power weapons, melta weaponry, assault cannons and a big template wepaon called a vindicator.
And that's the error of the whole thing. With this move, he MUST move towards the NEAREST enemy unit. check the Black-Templars codex Pg. 32 for that.Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags
One way of handling this is get some dreads. Yes, his powerfists will kill them sometime, but if you play it right those fists won't be able to strike on the turn you (counter) charge. That leaves them stuck there for at least one turn, so you can set up your troops and charge him.
One other thing is, a squad with a chaplain is fearless. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that also means the squad can't make that extra move because they don't have to test.
"I have died a thousand deaths, and I will die a million more..."
But thats where your wrong Rogue-Angel. It is true that Fearless squads don't take Leadership/Morale etc. tests, but it is also true that they are considered to "Automatically" pass them. And that means an automatic Zeal move if they take any shooting casualties.
While I play Templars myself, I find that "baiting" them is the best form of defence. Watch them chase a Rhino around all day. If they suffer shooting casualties, I think their Zeal move must be towards the "Nearest" enemy unit.
Normally, yes BTs much march towards the nearest visible enemy unit. However the Chaplain allows you a little more flexibility. You still much lurch towards the enemy, but you can choose which unit. I forget if you can choose any enemy unit or if you must choose from visible units, although I believe it's the later.Originally Posted by Rogue-Angel
You play your game, I'll play mine.
Yeah, with Chaplains the BT can move towards any visible enemy unit. So when the units are spread apart across, say, an 8' long pool table, the movement isn't really restricted much at all as they can move towards (for example) your long fang pack to the far right side of the board or to your deep-struck grey knights to the left, both pretty much away from your hard-hitting blood claws at the center.
However, if, for instance, you grouped your units together a little more tightly, the chaplain would only get to choose units in the same relative direction, bringing them into range of a bolter or charge. That's how I would play it: cut down the movement choices/angles.
Oh yeah, and with the HOA, don't deep strike.
"Listen up you primitive screwheads ... see this ... this is my BOOM-stick!" - Ash
"I told you, it's not Pink! It's Light Red!" Donut on his new power-armor.
Remember that the zeal rule comes into play at the END of your shooting phase. meaning that if you put 1 squad of BC and a GH squad next to each other you can fire with one squad and charge with the other while he thought he was out of your charge range. Just make sure you have enough room between your and his squads.
another effective way to neglate his zeal rule is to use concentrated fire. Fire every weapon in your army at one squad. If a squad only has another squad in range just don't fire. If he doesn't suffer casualties he doesn't get his rightous zeal rule.
If he still hit your lines using the zeal rule it is considered to be a consiladation(sp) move. This way he doesn't get to re-roll his failed to hit rolls. The chaplin's special rule only works when he gets the CHARGE.
hope it helped
DonÂ´t mess with the dicegod
The best way I have found is to use large weapons interspersed with small arms fire. Generally the chaplain has mixed armor rates, meaning that he has some that are 3+ (initiates and chaplain) and then the neophytes and servitors at 4+ the key is to shot the hell out of the 4+ armor saves until it is no longer the majority armor type in the unit, then fire all you have in the form of heavy weapons at the 3+ majority armor save. Thats the way I have whittled down the 20 man chaplain squads for Black Templars. Always calculate which armor save is the majority and alternate small arms fire with heavy weapons fire.