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Ok, I watched the most unholy beating earlier today, Which I'll be posting the battle rep on in a little while, and a Question popped into my head "How do these guys Beat Khorne...ever?" Now, I know you guys are a fan of S6 Force weapons, and hey, if there's a pre-order list, then sign me up, but Kharn will stomp any GK character, for that matter, any Khorne champion will pummel into the ground any Grandmaster. I witnessed Kharn in all his gore covered fury Hack through 9 GK, including a Grand Master, who wasn't even allocated all 8 attacks that turn, he got 6. But what do you guys do against Khorne? even Bloodletters walk through your bullets. And granted, there might be threads like this, but for Kharn? he's tougher than a Bloodthirster for you guys to kill.
Not flaming, I've seen you guys tear through most armies, especially BA and SW, so I'm not dissing the army. I just really want to know how you guys could deal with Senor de Kharne in a squad of 16 BErzerkers.
Thanks a ton
>_< This is flaimng in the first paragraph. Heretic...
I say, get 2 land raiders and shoot at htem, unload and kill the remains in CC. We arent THAT bad so you have to get pretty bad roles to do nothing at all. And what was that grandmaster armed with Senor ChaplainCalypsius? Cuz it must have been TERRIBLE.
As for Bloodletters, Word the Emperor is emperor-godsend against them, 'specially with a shooty =][= from hell. Oh, you just got the charge? Nope. Sorry! Sacred incense is great stuff too. Oops! I get to strike before you! Hell, most psychic powers will kick much ass against Khorne. Hammerhand, for instance gives a GM 5 S8 attacks. Or Destroy Daemon...hmmm...oh! Look at that! I actually DID hit your Bloodletters! Grimoire of True Names? WHOA!! Your 'Letters now have WS 2! Imagine this: a GM with Destroy Daemon, a daemonhammer, and sacred incense. That's gonna be able to deal with quite a few daemons. Four S8 attacks, no saves, going first, able to reroll to hit and to wound rolls. Wow. So the key word to dealing with chaos is WARGEAR. All else failing, drop a Lance Strike or Melta Torpedo on their ass and watch them cry. I'm feeling optimistic, so if I sound like an ass, please excuse me.
Kharn? Isn't he a special character? In that case i'd just say "No you cannont use him"
I truely hate special characters. Most often they are overpowered and just seem to show the player as a weak one.
How big was the battle? 16 Berzerkers and Khorne? Is that what was facing? 9 GK? Normal or Terminator, If it was normal that doesn't really surprise me. What did the GM have? He must have been equipped badly or he would have gotten the first attack and so would his terminators, save maybe against Kharn, but i'm willing to bet that the GM would get to hit before Kharn.
Personally i'd treat them like any other army, shoot at them, use psycannons on the Deamons when needed, maybe take a meat shield to slow them down and give me the counter charge. I'll go into more detail later.
But i'm very willing to bet if I got the charge on "Kharn" then he would be dead that round.
Inu and Vaug have already pointed out a couple of the better ways to combat it when a pure GK army, there are other ways.
Inu pointing out the basics of what a fully equiped GM will have normally.
Really tho, you shouldn't assume because one battle went badly that all of a sudden we all have tons of problems beating them. Khorne is a nasty army but you make it out like "OMG THEY OWN YOU EVERYTIME RIGHT?!"
Whew, I just got a look at his stats, he is a cheap ***** isn't he. I would never let someone field him.
If someone's using a special character, 'specially chaos, tool your GM to fight it! Against a Khornate army, try and do as much ranged damage as possible before entering CC, as both GK and Khorne are designed to rip thru in CC. Sacred Incense, Word of the Emperor, Icon of the Just work good, basically let's you go first then gives you an extra save (seeing as Champions of Khorne usually have armor-save negating weapons).
Other than the GM, Purgation squads work well, tooled up anti-chaos =I='s work too, ranged or CC.
id send a calldidus at him simple as that he would be one dead dude with little effort. She gets the charge always and she ignores his 2+/4+ and rerolling FnP. He would be dead.
I find this very hard to belive. Face it anything less of a tooled up lord wont be able to defeat a grand master without furious charge. If he doesnt get that then the grand master will be able to stomp any champion of chaos (save for maybe slaanesh) that str 6 force weapon will simply do too much damage before you kill it off.but Kharn will stomp any GK character, for that matter, any Khorne champion will pummel into the ground any Grandmaster. I witnessed Kharn in all his gore covered fury Hack through 9 GK, including a Grand Master, who wasn't even allocated all 8 attacks that turn, he got 6. But what do you guys do against Khorne?
The soloution to khorne in close combat
Grand master with sacred incecne and icon of the just and MC nemesis
retinue of termies
Bam nothing will be able to bite those terminators in close combat unless they all have initive five, and you would have to give them furious charge for that. That would make them cost 23 pts a model. A termie will be able to kill of quite a few before he gets hit back. As for Kharn since he gets no invulnerable save against the force weapon, he wont be able to hit back before he is sent back to hell. Bam 180 points down the drain. We can face khorne in close combat its just we need to use finese with our units. Daemone walk through our bullets? You act as if they have a 2+ save they only have a 3 for 26 points, storm bolter and psycannon fire will kill quite a few daemons and make them take instability. Ive fought khorne on many occasions and the players simply rely too much on their wargear and veteran skills to carry them through anything. They dont even know what weapons the GK are armed with. It was to his suprise when a 6 man terminator squad and a tooled up grand master walked through his lord and 20 bezerkers in 3 turns.
You know what they say, if you dont like the weather in houston...go back to where you came from
As it was, the GM did put 2 wounds on good ol' Kharn, but then the SOB hacked him into bloody little bits. And the reason I asked about only Khorn is cause that friggin' Collar negates that force weapon. After the guy playing the GK did the wounds he started laughing and rolled a psychic check, to which the Khorne player started laughing and rolled his attacks.
The GM did have sacred incense. That was why he hit Kharn first, and tried to use the force weapon. But after Kharn Mauled the GM, the sacred incense was gone. And then it hit the fan for the GK, cause granted they beat down all but 4 of the berzerkers, but after Kharn ate the GM, he walked though all the casualties listed above. And most people know that you can tool up Khorne Lords and Lieutenants for CC to a crazy degree, and if you can't force weapon kill them, doesn't that make it difficult to take out their hq? Also it was pretty funny cause the WE player had this Aspiring champion that was killing everything, he killed a few termies, etc...etc..., then he fought a little too close to Kharn, and Kharn lopped his head off, just for the effort. And another reason I wondered is if the WE(or Chaos in general)takes mutated hull on a defiler, or better yet a predator so you must have land raiders, or dreadnoughts to deal with them, which normally die pretty quick(except Land Raiders).
But you guys would say no to the special characters? most GW stores(Or at least the one I play at) you don't need to ask permission. And what about the Grey Knight specail character, Brother-Captain Stern? do any of you guys use him at all?
Has anyone out there used Holocaust twice with a squad? Was under the impression that you could use it twice with a hero having it and then purchasing it for the Termie squad as well.. does that work well?
The reason I'm asking about all this is that I have wanted to start a GK army for a while, gonna paint them like they are in the Index Astartes, so I'm trying to figure out how you would deal with things like Chosen Retinues, and Daemon Princes with the collar of Khorne and the likes.
I'm the only one who said they would say no to using him I believe so I'll answer to that,
Its a rule that you have to ask permission to put special characters into a game and even if its a house rule you don't have to ask then you can just refuse to play, its perfectly reasonable to ask that these characters are not allowed ingame.
From what you said it seems the only thing that did well against GK was Kharn and being a special character I don't give him much credit.
I'll try and answer your questions now:
Mutated Hull isn't a problem vrs Gk tanks as we have upgrades that give us extra pen and such against them if they take that. We already have to rely on Dreads and LRs for our Anti Tank really, well ranged anti tank.
I'v never used Holocaust twice but I could see how it would be very useful against Orks and Nids or any horde army but otherwise its best to take Holocaust with the Terminators and another power.
Overall to deal with such as that you need to just equip as best you can, strike first and do all the damage you can do, Chaos won't have alot of advantages over you once you do that and it ends up relying on the rolls.
I don't know if this has been said before in this thread but the easiest way to tear Kharn a new one is to use a Dreadnought. In fact any vehicle would do the trick but the since the Dreadnought can fight back, it would lock him in a CC that Kharn would have a hard time walking away alive from.
And the best thing: any SM (or for that sake IG with Sentinels) army can do this at a point cost waaaaaay lower than the cost of Kharn. 2 or three Dreadnoughts could really ruin a WE armys day. Then add upp some Rhinos/Razorbacks/Chimeras and the Berzerkers are taken care of too, pounding away with S4 against the vehicles.
The key is to use Blood Rage against them, make them charge stuff they can't destroy and you'll own ANY WE army
'But for corruption thou hast made Belial, an angel of hostility. All his dominions are in darkness, and his purpose is to bring about wickedness and guilt. All the spirits that are associated with him are but angels of destruction.