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This a thread I've been been thinking about making for a while. So without further ado...
There are some units in the space marine arsenal that I have never seen used, and others that I've never even seen discussed. The point of this thread is not to just say that they're crap, but to try and find uses for them, and I'm sure there are some situations where these units are useful. Some of these are entire entries, others are just certain weapon loadouts. So here we go...
1. Land Speeder Typhoon
3. Drop Pod with deathwind launcher
4. Dreadnought with assault cannon and missile launcher
Those are the main few. Others that come to mind, but have been discussed many times before are: Scout bikes, Techmarine servitors, Veterans, and the Vindicator. Though I don't think I've ever seen any of these used in a game, so feel free to discuss them as well.
"You challenge me knowing that I am Xiahou Dun!?"
Well, I've used a Razorback a couple of times. But it somewhat depends on how big some squads are you are fielding and willing to transport. For a small anti-armor squad it's pretty nice. I do think you shouldn't equip them with lascannons because that'll attract too much fire. But again, that depends against which army you're playing. Heavy bolters won't do much against an all armor IG army. But against Nids or Orks those bolters are quite handy.
As for a Land speeder typhoon. I was planning to buy one before Chaos Marines caught my attention. I think it's a pretty usefull unit. He ain't as expensive as a fully kitted Tornado and those missles can sure back a punch, especially against infantry due to the small blast marker. But like the Razorback it's more dependent against which army you're playing, and with the Tornado even more so. I think that's a reason why a lot of people don't buy/field em, it's to specific, because against some armies the Tornado is quite useless. But against IG, Orks or Nids I think they'll have good use.
I have used it a couple of times against Eldar and the like. But compared to other Landspeeders you don't get "much bang for your buck" as people like to say. If you chose a tornado you get a more efficient machine that can potentially do a lot more. Plus it is a strange combination - a skimmer with a rnage 48'' weapon and the weapon is only S5. So it is good at killing Eldar Guardians, IG infantry and the likes, but with the small template it doesn't kill enough models.Originally Posted by Xiahou DunThe main problem seems to be that Marine squads are more effective in groups of 10. So using a Razorback seems to limit the effectiveness of the Squad itself without giving you too much of a bonus. The Rhino is then of course the choice for the bigger squads. Another reason fewer people are using it, is that the rhino rush doesnlt work anymore. So you cannot charge out of a vehicle anymore. That made the Razorback tasty - you could have a small but expensive command squad in there for example and then charge into your opponent. That is of course not possible anymore. You can only shoot now. and for that to be effective you need bigger squads.Originally Posted by Xiahou Dun
I guess you might see it mostly used with Techmarines and shooty command squads (if that).Haven't seen a drop pod army in a while. The problem here is that you upgrade a cheap vehicle that gets shot to bits easily. Plus the support choice in a drop pod army is not the drop pods themselves.Originally Posted by Xiahou Dunthe main reason here is probably that it is not effective. You mix roles on one model, that usually doesn't work. The Assault cannon is for close range (24'') the Missile Lauchner for Long range (48'') SO the Missile Launcher is best combined with a Lascannon for stadning back and tankhunting. The Assault cannon is better combiend with a CCW for close support and charging if necessary.Originally Posted by Xiahou DunScout bikes - to costly for what they can do.Originally Posted by Xiahou Dun
Techmarine Servitors -
Gun Servitors don't last as long as a Marine with the same weapon
Close Combat Servitors are too expensive for what they can do
Tech Servitors - only work if you have many tanks and that is usually not the case in a SM army
Veterans - the are probably one of the most underused/underappreciated squads in the game. most people think they are too expensive for what they can do. I like to use them in bigger games to give me an infiltrating unit with a teleport homer that can close assault (with the extra lightning claw these days).
Vindicator - I think most people don't like to use it because of the comparatively low Armor and range. I like to use it as a boogeyman/area denial tool. If I am lucky I even get a shot or two off before my opponent destroys it or takes its main weapon.
Shut up and play.
The entire vehicle seems confused in its role.Razorbacks are decent vehicles, but, as was stated above, Marine units are at their best in units 8-10 men strong. The best use I can think of for a Razorback is for small Devastator Squads.2. Razorback
Since Devastators are Heavy Support, their transport deploys along with them, as one of the first units that you put down on the table. I personally use a 6 man Devastator Squad with 3 Missile Launchers, so the ability to deploy my Devastators, and then set my Razorback way upfield to force enemy units back with its 18 to 24" 'push' could certainly be worth it, especially against armies like Tyranids who will be on top of you quickly. By setting up something expendable like a Razorback, you force the speedy bugs back a few inches, which can make all the difference when it comes to shooting them up.
Granted, taking a Rhino with your Devastators could work as well for cheaper, but a Razorback can't be ignored due to its heavy weapon.Useless, in my opinion. The Drop Pod has a terrible Ballistic Skill, so firing an expensive weapon that practically never hits seems pretty pointless to me. Also, it's argued that Drop Pods automatically award half of their points value in Victory Points to the Space Marine's opponent due to being Immobile (essentially an Immobilized vehicle). Do you really want to hand off 25 points per Pod to your enemy? I know I wouldn't.3. Drop Pod with deathwind launcherThese I actually like. When equipped with an Assault Cannon, a Dreadnought is often out of range of any decent targets come the first turn, so the ability to fire a Krak Missile at a tank, or send a Frag Missile into a group of tightly packed enemies as the Dreadnought brings its Assault Cannon to bear can be quite valuable.4. Dreadnought with assault cannon and missile launcher
Also, against units like Space Marines, Assault Cannons aren't quite as powerful because of the strong 3+ armor save. The ability to pick off a model with a well-aimed Krak Missile is always handy against the on-average small units of MEQs. Similarly, firing the Assault Cannon into a horde unit does a lot of damage, and adding a Frag Missile into the mix can't hurt (the Dreadnought, anyway. It'll certainly hurt the unit that's being shot at).Well, you forgot the normal patter Land Raider, but of the units that you mentioned above...Those are the main few. Others that come to mind, but have been discussed many times before are: Scout bikes, Techmarine servitors, Veterans, and the Vindicator. Though I don't think I've ever seen any of these used in a game, so feel free to discuss them as well.
Scout Bikes are expensive, but can be quite worth it when it comes to taking objectives quickly like Table Quarters. Scout Bikers will suffer when it comes to holding a non-moving objective (Loot Counters, for example), since their single greatest strength is their ability to move quickly. If you need to hold a static objective, a unit of Tactical Marines would probably serve you a whole lot better for your points. Now, when it comes time to grab a Table Quarter or zip into the enemy Deployment Zone in a Recon Mission, Scout Bikes are good choices.
Techmarine Servitors suffer from a low Toughness characteristic and bad armor (for a Marine army, at least). Since one of the Space Marine army's biggest strengths is its thick armor and high Toughness (which is exactly what makes Space Marines so hard to take down), Servitors don't really have much of a place.
Veterans can be decent choices, but most people would rather take a Trait in order to get Furious Charge, Tank Hunters or Infiltrate on any Tactical Squad they want, rather than use an Elite Slot (used for Dreadnoughts and Terminators, for the most part) on Veterans. Now, when people actually stick with set Traits instead of changing them for every game (never something I liked or agreed with, personally), Veterans can find a spot.
The Vindicator is a good psychological weapon, but the one big issue with it is that it attracts so much firepower and is so expensive that it usually doesn't last very long. I think the best use of a Vindicator is to keep it behind cover only to roll out and launch a shell from its Demolisher Cannon at something expensive as it gets close. It's very satisfying to land a massive template that ignores all armor on a expensive unit of Khorne Berzerkers or something.
I always take a Vindicator, it's the signature of my army.
I take it because it specifically does what its supposed to, draw fire.
Take the front and point it at the enemy, so that they have to work for the kill, and let the shells fly.
Give it extra armour and Power of the Machine Spirit, the only way to stop it is to utterly destroy it. Ha HA!
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It comes down to what you want your Tactical Squad to do. If you just want to sit back and shoot, then yes, min/maxing your units to 5 or 6 men with lascannon/plasmagun is great, but if you plan on actually capturing an objective, you're better off with 8-10 man units.
5 Man Marine Squads with no heavy or special weapons.
I have only ever seen 1 person take them, but he seemed to think that any GW box would be cool and had such units as 10 man Tactical Squads with Flamer, ML and Sgt B.P+C.C.W.
Don't see many of those either.
I see Typhoons occasionaly and all kinds of weird and wonderful Dreadnoughts, I use a Vindicator and so do all Iron Warrior players.
I've 'seen' a Drop Pod all of once, people using them amost always proxy, a 'Pod model would have been clever.
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I use a razorback as a sort of underestimated piece of plasma and bolter death. (plamsa pistol and plasma gun in squad plus bolters and HB and storm bolter plust EA and smoke for emergencies) Of course people tend to shoot at Rhinos and large assault squads over razorbacks. The vindicator is also useful, but I don't personally use them in any game under 2000 points.
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