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I play black templars so I have the mixed armor save headache whenever I play :wacko:
An interesting problem came up today when I was playing, someone shot me with a plasma pistol and caused a wound. I had 10 Initiates and 5 Neophytes. I took one of the Neophytes off the table and someone complained, (my opponent was cool with it so it was someone from the peanut gallery). I thought the mixed armor save rule said I need to take saves on the majority save, but with a plasma no one gets an armor save. Since no one gets a save there no need to take it from the majority armor save. Am I wrong?
Black Templars 3000 points
Tau Empire 1750 points
Tyranids 1500 points
Hordes of Chaos *Coming soon*
Hm it was a lone gunslinger?
I'm leaning towards it that a 3 + is removed, you still follow the rules although the plasma pistol bypass's your armour save. If the pistol was in a unit you may have had a chance.
Ill check my BGB when i find it.
Hope that helps.
EDIT- You don't save on the majority, you form sets, taking from the lowest first, each model
having to take a save before the next one can take 2 saves.
IE. If your unit took 16 wounds from 1 enemy unit then every model must take a save,
from there it is your choice to who takes the 1 extra wound.
You repeat this per unit's shooting.
Oh and it is the models save that is taken, although you can remove any model with the same save if you fail one.
Don't know if you weren't doing that, just the way you worded it confused me :shifty:
( Oh and it might be slightly different my BGB is playing hide and snipe again.)
The Peanut Gallery was correct, you should have removed one of the models in the Majority Save group (one of the 10 Initiaties) in this instance. Here is the relevant part of the Mixed Armor rules (p 76).
Bullet 3. "Apply the wounding hits to the majority armour type first."
So the rule dictates who the wounding hits go to, with respect to the armor types in the unit. It doesn't matter that no one actually gets to make their save(in this case due to weapon's AP), as the Majority Armour rules only dictate who wounding hits go to within a unit.
Above that, it clearly stats: When the player makes his Armour Saves,The Peanut Gallery was correct, you should have removed one of the models in the Majority Save group (one of the 10 Initiaties) in this instance. Here is the relevant part of the Mixed Armor rules (p 76).
Against weapons which do not allow a save, mix armour rules do not apply.
Please notice the example they provide (to prove my point that mix armour rules are only used when armour saves are taken,) why else would the chaos player have the option?
There are 3 models with no save, and 1 with a save. Yet they can choose to take it on the model with a save.
Why? Because mixed armour saves only applies to units where both armour types are allowed saves.
This is my own example: 4 neophytes, 5 neophytes, 1 Chaplain (with 2+ save).
Suddenly this squad takes 7 wounds from heavy bolter fire.
4 neophytes are wounded, and must roll armor. Now the BT player can allocate up to one shot onto his model with a superior armor save, and 2 or 3 onto the models with no saves.
If the squad took 12 wounds from bolter fire, then the neophytes would take 5 wounds, the initiates 4, and the chaplain 1, it would then wrap around and hit the neophytes again, with the remaining 2 shots.
Here's how that plays out with the Chaos example:
Step 1). Count; the Chaos player counts out one 2+ Save, eight 3+ Saves, and three No Saves*.
* Special Note: The Wizard Thralls in the example aren't considered to get No Save because of a weapon's AP value, its because they are wearing No Armour! AP values of weapons aren't addressed at all in the Mixed Armour rules.
Step 2). Determine what's in the Majority; clearly the eight 3+ Saves are in the majority.
Step 3). Apply hits to the Majority first; No matter what, the first eight wounding hits in a 'set' of incoming attacks must go to the eight models in power armour first. There are no exceptions to this found anywhere on the rules on this page.
Step 4). The owning player (Chaos) gets to allocate any additional wounding hits. Now that each model in the majority has been allocated a single wound, the Chaos player can pick who gets allocated any extras. Thus, he gets to chose to apply the next hit to a model that has a good chance to save (the Aspiring Champion), at the risk that he rolls poorly and dies, or he can apply the next hit to a model that gets no save (One of the Thrall Wizards) and automatically remove the model.
I'm guessing perhaps that you are confused because you are assuming that once wounding hits have been allocated to the saves in the majority (in this case the eight in power armour), that they should then be allocated to the saves that have the second highest number towards majority (which would be the three Wizards with No Save). However, the rules don't say anything about this requirement. Once the majority has been taken care of, its up to you to determine who is allocated the next hit.
1.) Count up the number of models with each type of armour.
2.) Figure out if anybody isn't going to get to save (either they aren't wearing any Armour, or the AP value of the incoming hit will deny an armour save).
3.) Go ahead and remove any models that don't get a save, as they're dead and the Mixed Armour rules don't apply to them. Don't worry about whether the model you select is in the majority or not.
4.) From the remaining models, determine which is in the majority.
5.) Allocated remaining wounding hits to the majority save first.
Okay, you've got 4 Initiates (3+ Save), 5 Neophytes (4+ Save) and a Chaplain in Artificer Armour (2+ Save) in a unit that is hit with Heavy Bolter fire. The opponent rolls Strength (5) vs. Toughness (4) and gets 7 wounding hits.
Step 1) Count saves. We've already done that: four at 3+, five at 4+, and one at 2+
Step 2) Determine the majority: Our 5 Neophytes in 4+ armour are clearly in the majority.
Step 3) Apply wounding hits to the majority armour type first. Okay, so the first 5 wounding hits out of the 7 go to the Neophytes. Interim results: The Heavy Bolter is AP 4, which means the Neophytes are out of luck, remove 5 dead Neophytes.
Step 4) The owning player can allocate any remaining wounding hits as he/she sees fit. We now have 2 hits remaining to allocate. So our Black Templar player can either allocate both remaining hits to Initiates (having a 3+ Save), or can allocate 1 hit to an Initiate and 1 hit to the Chaplain (hoping the 2+ save will protect him) in order to increase his chances of not losing more Initiates.
That's it. It's really simple.
I disagree with the basic premise of your argument, that these rules are always in effect. Units which AP is pieced do not follow the mixed armour save rules. Why? because they dont take armour saves. You must first be able to make a save for these rules to apply.
If one party of the unit is able to make saves, then the mixed armour rules apply.
If 0 models are able to make saves, then none of these rules are used, because armour saves are not being rolled.
Example: 6 models with 4+, and 5 models with 3+ saves are in a unit.
The unit comes under fire and takes 7 AP4 wounds.
In this case, the 3+ units can take armour saves, so the mixed armour saves rule applies - thus 6 of the 4+ save models are killed, and then 1 of the 3+ units makes a save, as per normal use of the rule.
Same unit, now takes fire from plasma weapons, and suffers 4 wounds. No armour saves may be taken against this, thus the mixed armour rule has no effect, because no one is taking any armour saves, now the player owning units may remove any models he choices, as per normal alocation rules.
You must have at least one model in a unit with a save to qualify for the mixed armour rules.
Otherwise magorety toughness, and standard allocation rules apply.
Okay let me give you another Scenario. Your Tactical Squad is shooting a 20 man Guardian Squad led by a Warlock. The guardians get hit 9 times. By your reading of the rules, I can apply 8 hits to the Guardians and 1 hit to the Warlock. The Mixed Armour Rules represent the fact that in a hail of gunfire the guys that will get hit the most are the ones who are most common in a unit. You Allocate Wounding Hits before you check for Armour Piercing.
Using the Same example, the 9 hits are 8 bolter hits and 1 Plasma gun hit. 9 guardians would die. It doesn't matter that I the warlock has an invulnerable save, you still have to exhaust all models with the majority save first.