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Okay, first off, everyone calm down, I'm not trying to criticise, or start a flame war, or anything.
Now, let me explain:
I'm looking for a new army. I've been playing Dark Eldar for a bit now, as I'm a bit of a speed addict (the fast thing, not the drug thing). I enjoy the way they play, but they don't really speak to me in terms of models and fluff. Because I'm now getting more into the modelling/fluff aspect than I was at the start of my 40King career, I'm looking for an army with a bit more soul in it.
There are three that have jumped out at me. Imperial Guard, a Radical Daemonhunters list using lots of elites and some inducted guard, and a pure Grey Knights force. (SoBs also appealed, but the expense in getting the models to make them WYSIWYG would be ridiculous, unfortunately). Reason I can't decide is that I've got little doubts about all of them. The Imperial Guard I'll ask after in the IG section of the forum. The Radicals, well, I'll post another thread for that soon. But this one is about GK.
The appeals of a pure GK army:
- While I may not be the most skilled painter/modeller, I am an utter perfectionist in what I AM able to do. This means I spend a lot of time on models. The low model count of a GK army is appealing because I could give each of those awesome models the attention it deserves.
- The stalwart protectors fluff is cool. Their small numbers but elite troops will make some of their stands quite epic.
My concerns are two-fold.
1. Would a Grey Knight army be boring to play? It seems to me that your standard 1500 point army (the value I play) would have a Brother-Captain/Grandmaster with a small retinue, 3-4 squads of PAGK (with some of them as Fast attack), and a pair of Dreadnoughts. Psycannons are generally discouraged because of their negative effect on the model (takes away CC ability), so it's pretty much all stormbolters for shooting, apart from the dreads (there may be 1 or 2 psycannons in the army). There are no transports, so it's walk or teleport. To me there doesn't seem to be much variety , or many separate units to affect tactics with. (In comparison, my 1500 point DE list has a Archon with Incubi in a raider, wych squad in raider, 2 Raider squads, 2 Dark Lance squads, a jetbike squad and 2 Ravagers, with another 6 unit types in the army that I could use). What do people say to this?
2. Effectiveness. Fact of the matter is I like to win, at least sometimes. Most people do. I know that GK aren't the easiest army to play. My regular opponents are Deathguard, Eldar and Tyranids, played by players of equal skill to myself (which is average). I figure GK can shoot down infantry okay given their stormbolters, and obviously they can hold their own against most infantry in combat. I worry about their ability to kill armour though. People say to take meltabombs, but are there really opponents dumb enough to let you get that close? How does one win with any consistency with a pure GK army.
If you've read this far, then your patience is impressive.:yes:
I thank you in advance for your comments.
Pure grey knights can win, but it is never easy. Especially in objective based games. However if you want to play pure GKs there is one question you need to ask yourself that is probably the most important--Do you like playing on the table top, or making lists? If you enjoy strategic table top play GKs are pretty good, if you like putting lists together Daemonhunterss, and especially pure GKs should not be your army.
As for your normal enemies, the eldar with be tough if they are skimmer heavy, the tyranids will be tough if they are genestealer heavy, and I find that chaos is often the toughest army for me to fight with my GKs (though I don't typically use anti chaos equiptment, and they don't normally play nurgle). Conversly gaunt/MC heavy tyranids aren't the bigest problem, even when they charge for 24" you still hit on 3s and wound on 2s with a pretty worthless save. Normally one round of shooting turns gaunts into meaningless units because if they charge they get wiped out on the same turn. (I haven't played eldar or Nurgle enough to kow when it should be a cakewalk). However play GKs does give your friends the ability to take advantage of your weakenesses because they are incredibly hard for GKs to make up for without allies/induction. If your friends are all about winning I wouldn't want to play pure GKs because their are lists that we just can't beat.
Last edited by nichodemus10; October 31st, 2006 at 15:04.
You've picked out the most appealing aspects of the GK-heavy army very well: amazing models, fantastic fluff. And you've also correctly noted the weaknesses of such an army: low unit diversity, few heavy weapons options, little mobility. You're also correct in that such an army is challenging to play. The DH is really a finesse army despite its outward similarities to the space marines. However, it is possible to win. Your most difficult opponents will be heavily mechanized opponents. I regularly play a mech DG player, and whille I don't go pure GK, I do play a preponderence of GK units, and I've figured out how to be competetive.
Anyway, you've got the right idea on pure GK. Whether it will work for you is entirely up to you.
Personally, I think what makes the Ordo armies so fun is the diversity of units available to you, especially if you are willing to ally. A "puritan" Ordo army has more options available then just about any other 40K army.
For the DH, if you're looking to make the most competetive army possible, then I would recommend you don't go pure GK. Again, not that such an army isn't competetive, but it's a surprisingly conservative army, and one that is difficult to use correctly. So while you can build your army around a solid core of GKs, I would try and include inquisitors, maybe assassins, maybe ISTs, and maybe some allied/inducted units, too. You'll get a much more colorful, well-rounded force that way.
If you're seriously considering playing a "radical" army, then you'll pretty much have to take advantage of inducted and allied units. But, with a little creativity, you can still get some amazingly interesting armies built. Here's a radical army that is technically a WH army, but which still has a strong DH theme, based around the idea of a mad Ordo Malleus inquisitor that stops at nothing to bring the fight to chaos, no tool too tainted to use!
HQ [WH]: Daemon/Daemonic construct (Inquisitor Lord Karamazov)
HQ* [WH]: Cult Magus (Priest; *doesn't occupy an HQ slot)
HQ [DH]: Inquisitor Lord
Elite [WH]: Daemons/Daemon Hounds (Arco Flagellants)
Elite [DH]: Daemonhosts
Elite [WH]: Officio Assassin or DCAs (crazed cultists)
Troop [WH]: ISTs
Troop [WH]: ISTs
Heavy [WH]: Warp/Psychic Blast (Orbital Strike)
Fill out with traitor/tainted SM or IG units, too, and voila!
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
YES! One more going Pure GK!
IMO, Pure GK can be very effective, so long as you don't let yourself get distracted by shiny things, like Speical weapons and wargear.
The thing is, you have to be ready to lose, as it'll happen. In your case, it'll happen more agains the Eldar, as their Skimmers are a pain, but it is possible that if you can kill everything else you can still pull out a win.
Against Tyranids...it should be easy once you figure your opponent out. Gaunt Heavy Will be easy due to the sheer of shots you can get per turn (I can get nearly 110 @ 2000 points) and if He plays a Godzilla list it should again be fairly easy I believe, as Fexes are nasty in CC, but only after spending lots of points, but you you swamp them, the sheer number of Str6 attacks with a Few Power Weapons thrown in should get you a win.
DeathGuard, thats a tricky one, they are less dangerous because they can't take heavy weapons, but they tend to have plenty of Plasmaguns and Melteguns to compensate, plus with T5 they are hard to take down with shootingbut there tend to be about the same number of troopsas us, but tend to have more extra stuff. You'll just have to experiment wit tactics against them to see what woks and what doesn't.
I hope to see ya around the DH forum more!
Just never forget aabout mission objectives, I've won many games because I went for objectives rather than kill the enemy outright, sometimes you enemy might have forgotten about them too!
Pure Grey Knights are very very rewarding in play if you do it right, which admittedly is difficult. I dont know if you were wych heavy in DE but even though they are slower GK are one of the only three units i know capable of killing Wychs in CC with any success.
As other people have said one of the main reasons people are put off of GK is because there are so few models to work with and you will probably lose alot at the begginign especially if you go pure GK. Speed freaks are some of the last terms i would use to describe GK, fottsloggers would be more like it, expect for Fa.
Short answer is eys pure GK can win, but you have to have experience with them and enough knowledge to keep from dying the first couple of turns, it is this knowledge and experience thats so hard to get without being really patient.
Bottom line is if you dont want to spend a few months if not longer learning some difficult ropes than dont even try cause i havent heard of anyone whos able to win straight off with pure GK.
Last edited by Kale De Veinsten; November 1st, 2006 at 00:30.
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Thank you all for your answers. I thinking that maybe I should head away from pure GK. As good as the models are, I think I'll probably just get frustrated at their lack of mobility and variety.