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From the thread entitled Are pure GK boring, and can they win?Please note that the Wych weapon rules regarding S6 actually say that the weapons don't work if the opponent has an unmodified strength of 6 or more. Given that a Grey Knight's statline is S4, with +2S for his NFW, they would still go down to half weapon skill (well, 3 anyway, 2.5 rounded up). They would also lose their True Grit attack, as the rule states that any model in combat with wyches doesn't count as having 2 CCWs, and the True Grit rule states that they get the attack for being armed with a second CCW (their stormbolter).Originally Posted by Kale De Veinsten
So as it stands, assuming no charge from either side (which favours the GK, as it'd be the wyches charging more often) GK will be getting 1 S6 attack at WS3. On average, they'll kill 55/24ths of wych models (assuming a 10 strong squad, with a Justicar that still gets 2 attacks) which comes out at 2 and a bit. That's after the wyches have struck, when they'll kill 36/27ths (about 1.5 models) with their regular attacks. The Succubus with Agoniser (pretty standard fare) will kill 1 model by herself. This is all just averages, of course, but we've got no better way to compare, really. So both squads are killing 2 and a bit models. The important difference is that the GK are worth 275 points. The Wyches are worth 213 points including the Raider with Dark Lance that they flew in on (becuse they're pretty worthless without it) (they're 158 points without it). And really, the Raider is valuable in its own right, being a 55 point mobile anti-tank weapon, and mobile scenery.
So it ends up being a 213 point squad going toe to toe with a 275 point squad. That's a win for the cheap squad, IMO.
I'm not trying to spark a "my army is better than yours" debate, rather just trying to clarify the situation. In my opinion, thinking that GK can take on Wyches is a bad idea, especially when they're shot down so incredibly easily. Make sure you shoot them down! (Unless you're trying to shoot down the Archon and Incubi, because those guys will tear anything power-armoured a new one. Even Daemon Princes need to be a bit wary).
Incidentally, to Kale, what are the other two units that you reckon can take on Wyches?
(I used to think Wyches were so-so, okay, until I actually gave it some thought. I'm now convinced they're definitely top 3 for CC-ability vs cost, maybe number 1 even).
I said that GK could probably take Wyches in CC, i feel i should rephrase this; I think GK could probably hold their own against Wyches in CC. When i made my statement i was thinking in terms of what usually happens when Wyches zoom across the field to take something on, and that is that my Gk get a good shooting phase with their storm bolters and then get charged or charge the Wyches(usually the former) and in the shooting phase that paper armour they wear usually doesnt put up too much resistance.
Actually most of the time i face DE i take a psycannon or two with every squad and that blows up the Raiders... anyway GK dont get slaughtered in the ten seconds Wyches slaughter everything else with T4 and 3+ AS and can hit back with S6 even if they are hitting on 5's I think. What i meant was they dont die easily even to Wyches and they can take a few with them even if the Wyches get into CC.
As for who else could take on the Wyches i used to think that they were number one in CC but there is one unit I think might be able to kill them in CC for equal pts cost. Those units are Genestealers, Genestealers can field a lot of themselves for an average points costs and if you pump them up with rending talons extended carapace and such they are supremely qualified to rip almost anything else to shreds. I have seen them even rip Wyches up about half the time when they went toe to toe with them, and that is a feat well worth boasting. On a good day maybe Blood angel termies could say something to Wych CC superiority and a GK GM and retinue might do some damage but those are some serious points when its alot easier to just take a lascannon and pop the raiders.
Anyway Genestealers are the only serious threat to Wych's in CC thats remotely close to their points cost and though id love to be biased and tell you that my PAGK can pwnozorzwn your Wych's in CC without losing a single man i cant, in good consience, make that statement.
i hope this answers the rest of your questions and I also hope you change your mind and at least try Pure GK because they are so cool if you can stick with them for the first few months, as it is my GM has only been defeated twice(once by a Wych Cult O-o) and my army has never gotten more than four losses in a row.
Last edited by Kale De Veinsten; November 1st, 2006 at 17:50.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Itachi UchihaKonoha's Morning Mist and the trueSharingan sucessorItachi, we love you alwaysOfficial Shodaime Hokage of the CON 2 Boards
I think you have to figure on the GK getting at least SOME storm bolter shots. That's doom for the withces, it ain't even great for the raider.
One mistake many new GK players make is that because Grey Knights have WS5 and S6, they are monstors in CC. They are not! Even 13th company can wax our A#@s. We are better in CC than Marines and better than most CSMs and they are very good shooty. They are not the best of either.
The secret of Playing Grey Knights is to outshoot the CC armies like DE, Orks and 'Nids and out assault the shooty armies like Tau, IG, and SMs.
Last edited by Diggums Hammer; November 1st, 2006 at 20:58.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
Might add a few things:
1. Wyches are not the destroyers of all units. Not by a long shot. I use my Wyches for counter-assault, because what they're the best at is just blunting enemy assault squads while slowly wearing them down. I throw in an Agoniser just so they can do some damage while they're there, because I expect very little from the regular Wyches' attacks.
2. As someone said, shoot at them. They don't like that.
3. Genestealers. Damnable things. Why Wyches hate Genestealers:
- DE players love going first in combat. Genestealers match our Initiative.
- The big one: They're not expensive enough! Wyches like taking on expensive things, because it means that they're making their points back better. By all means, put extended carapace on, add some scything talons (that way our Wych weapons have more effect for points). I'd much rather send them to a fight against Grey Knights, at least then I know they're making 2 Wyches back for every GK they kill.
- Rending doesn't bother me that much. Just means they autowound instead of needing a 3+, and I still get my Inv. saves. And it's only 1 in 6 hits anyway. And I've probably shot a few Genestealers on the way in anyway so that's less Rending hits.
Kale, I'd be interested in seeing the list you use for your pure GK. Perhaps you could put it in my other thread about GK?
I don't know about any other DE players but I'd hate to see wyches get stuck fighting Pariahs. It's true that you almost never see them, and they are hugely expensive but the one and only time they tangled with my wyches it was totally one sided. Add in a lord with gaze of flame or lightning field and you have something wyches want to avoid for the whole game.
And I agree with whoever said that wyches are not really the ultimate CC killers everyone makes them out to be. They are really great at tieing things up forever, until some incubi or an Archon can charge in and wipe everything out. They're also one of the best units in the game for preventing counter charges also, in a raider there's nothing faster in the game (possible 32" charge range with the right drugs), and they turn expensive assault marines or GK's into not much more than standard marines.
The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. Bring them understanding of the power of ourselves through our strength and their fear. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all fragments will be smashed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be consumed
[quote=Bugs_n_Orks;806109]I don't know about any other DE players but I'd hate to see wyches get stuck fighting Pariahs. It's true that you almost never see them, and they are hugely expensive but the one and only time they tangled with my wyches it was totally one sided. [quote]
I see Pariahs quite alot. It's a real favourite of Necron players around my area. I have yet to see a single DE player engage combat with them, however. They just get shot to pieces as soon as the twitch - they're too slow a unit. The Pariahs tend to do quite well, earning about 1.5 times their points back in most games I've seen (impressive), but that's only against armies that aren't heavily focused on speed.
guys i don't know how to quite tell you this but I've made a startling discovery.
a squad of 7 or 8 grey knighs do better than 10 grey knights. I dont know how but point cost wise they are better and overall they tend to win me the game.
I guess because grey knights rearly for me get picked of slowly but by quick actions from cretain squads.
and by cuting short a few models per unit I can add in an extra unit and wargear that with the game.
why is this important? against Wyches I do well with gry knights for once the initial 213 to 201 the extra squad cleans off the rest of the wyches with no distuction to the second squad.thus the end is a 12 pts gain or more for the gry knights. But this is only my experience which for all i know is just a really lucky flewk ...about 9 times.
"Advance, or it will not be daemonic blood that stains my hammer this day."
Inquisitor Lord Hephaestos Grudd, addressing Colonel Molain of the 223rd Gudrunite Rifles.