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This isn't in the Lists section because it's not really meant to be a "rate my list" post.
The point of this is to help educate little old uneducated me on what a pure Grey Knights list should look like. I imagine as a starting point, something like:
Grandmaster with Holocaust, with 4 Terminators
Dreadnought with Missle Launcher, TL Lascannon, Extra Armour
Dreadnought with Missle Launcher, TL Lascannon, Extra Armour
That's close to 1500 points. My MAIN questions (feel free to add your own other thoughts)
1. Lascannons or Assault Cannons on Dreads? I know Assault Cannons are cheaper, better against pretty much everything. What concerns me is the Dreads getting picked off before being in range.
2. I have 30 PAGKs there. Should it be the way I've got it, 3 units of 10, or lots of smaller units?
3. Wargear. Very little of it seems worth it. Meltabombs seem okay, but would they ever get close enough to use them?
4. Holocaust seems like a good way to kill things like Gaunts trying to tie the GM up. Is it?
5. Psycannons? Should I have any? How many? Where? Bunched up or spread out?
I guess that's all for now, but as I said, please feel free to add your own thoughts. This is mainly just meant to be a starting point from how I envisage a pure GK list.
Most of the guys here will most likely suggest you drop the Grand Master and replace him with a Brother Captain and another 2 termies.
I'll say stick with it because last battle i managed to walk all over my opponent with a 5 strong squad of GK terminators + Grand Master. He is expensive but come on, he's the duck's guts.
Take 2 of those PAGK squads as fast attack and you'll be right.
After a few years of not participating in the hobby, i've just recently come back to everything. I've been rather impressed with the Grey Knights. They are by no means easy to play but i enjoy the challenge and learning from the mistakes i make.
That being said, have a look at some IG troops and a Leman Russ, it'll do the duty a bit better than the dreads imho. You could take the dreads out, sub this sort of thing in, take an orbital strike and position the tank so its set up for where you're forcing your opponent to go. The leman russ performs at troop mashing duties much better
On top of that you've got the option of sticking a lascannon in each of the 2 IG squads, so you've still got some descent firepower. A lot of my early army lists were pure GK, but with the possibilities you get of doing something like this, it's too good to pass up.
Thanks for the advice mate.
Not sure if you've read some of my other posts on the topic, but I was really looking at pure GK, despite the added difficulty of playing them. The main reason for this is that while I'm not a GOOD painter, I'm an obsessive painter, and I spend a lot of time trying to get each model as good as I possibly can. Thus, GK make a lot of sense in that regard, since with only 30-35 models I can afford to spend time on them. (The fact that they're metal also means that if I screw up or think I can do better, out comes the paint thinner/turps).
Also, the thing with Guard is that I would have to first take 2 troops choices before I could take the Russ. That really dilutes the army, adds a lot of extra models to it, etc. While Imperial Guard appeal to me in their own right, I don't really have any interest in mixing them with GK (even though the GK would benefit).
As to some of your other suggestions, I'm pretty torn over the GM/BC issue myself. I know the GM is expensive in a 1500 point game, and my normal rule is no unit over 200 points unless I have a good reason for it, but my opponents (Deathguard, Nids, Eldar) all have big things (Great Unclean One, Tyrant/Fex, Wraithlord/Avatar) that they like using, and that I'm sure they'd charge at my GM, and the Force Weapon ability just seems like it would be so useful in that regard, more so than a couple more Termies. What say everyone else?
In which case, take the Grand Master, as i said earlier, i love him and refuse to give him up.
Depending on what you're playing you can take out the dreads and substitute with more PAGK or termies. Also do look at the orbital strike. At S:10, AP:1 and 70 points, it's a good way of scaring a player from a certain area.
The only difference between my Pure GK army and yours is the lack of dreadnaughts in mine and the inclusion of an inquisitor + assassin, and of course an orbital strike. Other than that, i crammed as mch troops as i could and it hasn't worked all that bad so far.
What do you do about vehicles?
The Eldar usually have a 2 Falcons and a couple of vypers, the Tyranids, well, they're not really a worry, but the Deathguard player takes 2 souped up Predators with Mutated Hull. Even the 2 Dreadnoughts aren't really a match. I'd have to hope for a lucky kill before the Dreads get nailed, or otherwise just hope to hell that the Shrouding can work for me.
You're on the right track with your pure GK army. "More GKs, less equipment" is the general rule. Keep that in mind and you really can't go wrong.So long as you keep at least 8 models in your GK squads, you're fine. Your 7-model squads are just at little bit thin, but passable.Originally Posted by SilentTempestI buy melta bombs when I can because my GKs have been caught in combat with Chaos dreads and defilers one too many times for my liking. It's those walkers with AV 13+ that are worrisome, and the real reason you take melta bombs. And for similar reasons you should always take, in your GKT HQ, one GKT with the free TH/SS loadout ... just in case.Originally Posted by SilentTempestNO!! You'll fail the psychic test between 8% and 9% of the time, and then your massively expensive model will suffer Perils of the Warp. Not good when you can't buy any instakill protection wargear. The risk is just not worth it. If you need Holocaust to get you through a close combat, then you are sending your GKTs into the wrong combat. Those are situations where you need to be shooting your enemy down, not assaulting them.Originally Posted by SilentTempestPsycannons on GKTs are a no brainer. Take them whenever you can afford 'em. And if you end up sticking with a GM HQ (notes on that later), then if you can afford only one psycannon in your army I'd put it on him. Take advantage of his BS 5!Originally Posted by SilentTempest
You can also build small "mini-purgation" Troops as fire static fire support squads: 5 GKs, 2x psycannons, 200 pts. Deploy in cover, stay put, take advantage of the The Shrouding, and good hunting to you. I don't personally like these squads in "less pure" DH armies, as there are for more affordable ways to get superior fire support in place -- and such a squad costs just a little less than a solid 8-man squad! -- but if you're going pure GK, this is a decent option.
But don't scatter psycannons in your footslogging or deep-striking, assault-oriented GK squads! You're increasing the cost of your GK while simultaneously weakening his combat effectiveness. Effectively, you end up building a single 50 pt bog-standard space marine where you could instead have two S6/True Grit Grey Knights with storm bolters! Not usually a good tradeoff.
I wouldn't recommend a purgation squad in a general, all-comer's list. It's usefulness is limited almost entirely to horde/low-T/low-armour-save foes: Orks, your average Tyranids list, some IG and Tau, most Eldar. If the average 40K foe wasn't MEQ and/or highly mechanized, then I'd think we'd see a lot more of us taking purgation squads. Against the right opponent, they're freaking awesome, but against your average opponent, they are an immense points sink and take up a precious heavy support slot, where you really need those dreadnoughts!
A final thought regarding the GM vs the BC. Personally, I think he's too expensive in any list under about 1750 pts. At 1500 pts, without any upgrades, he's 10% of your expenditures tied up into a single model ... that has no instakill protection! When you're in close combat, he can be picked out by that Hive Tyrant or Daemon Prince -- and they will probably go first, mind you! -- and kill him right quick, handing a significant victory points bonus to your opponent and drastically weakening your GKT squad in the process. Heck, you send him and his GKT squad into combat against a largeish SM squad and that hidden powerfist can off him if you're not careful/lucky and don't slaughter everybody on the initial assault.
The biggest problem is that it takes a lot of points to build a GKT HQ that you can feel confident will survive most enemies. And you don't have that kind of bank account in your average 1500 pt game. I'd stick with the BC, give him a retinue numbering between 3-5 models, and use them as the heaviest-hitting GK squad you have; a little extra tactical flexibility in your arsenal that a similar expenditure in PAGKs wouldn't supply. But that's how you should treat GKTs at this level: a different kind of GK troops you can use. You really can't afford to build a squad that is truly capable of taking down, in close combat, the biggest and meanest models your opponents can field. Try your darndest to shoot those monsters down, and get into CC only as a last resort.
Keep in mind that against most foes, your GM's init is 5, which a lot of critters can best. Against daemons, you can essentially better that to 6 with sacred incense, but even then the best you can hope for is to go simultaneously. In 90% of your games, you'd be better off spreading the risk and capabilities around to more models rather than shoring them up into a single GM. For nearly the same cost as a naked GM, you can field a BC and 2 GKTs as a "GM package". Same number of wounds, but twice the attacks and three times the shots. Treat this like a GM, and buy it a retinue, and you'll get a more resilient and harder-hitting unit. All you're really missing is the force weapon, but with so many additional attacks, you won't normally be missing that.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
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I think number6 covered it all
Bear is mind the game is for enjoyment, so if you think it will be more fun and dont mind taking the risk, then take that Grandmaster. Risk = Fun.. and tears if it doesnt work out (i've lost a near 500pt GM with Retinue, by d/striking off the table.... that was a sad moment... sorry boys but your backup is dead)
1 at a time:
Las vs ACs: I agree that anti-tank is the main concern, but mathematics shows that Assault Cannons actually produce a higher number of damaging hits on average than a twin-linked lascannon. Thus the question merely becomes one of range. Is 24" enough?
4: Holocaust: Perils is a S6 hit, right? Doesn't that mean that a GM needn't fear insta-death, given he's T4? And I would imagine that something like a squad of banshees, or even gaunts, would be quick enough that they have some control over who assaults who. It's more to make up for that. I certainly wouldn't intentionally waste Termies killing gaunts.
You suggest that Termies can get a Thunderhammer and Stormshield for free, but I can't find where it says that. Do you mean "free" compared to a Powerfist and Stormshield?
GM vs BC.
When you put it like that, taking a BC with a couple of other friends makes a lot of sense. I think I'll try that out, as I'm usually loathe to take big expensive units. My DE have a very expensive HQ squad, and I only take it because it's so deadly, but I'm always sweating on it getting shot down...
I'm also considering the mini-purgation squad, as I think a little extra firepower could be useful for taking down things like light vehicles.
Thanks for the useful advice, number6. Rep for you!
EDIT: Apparently I've already repped you too recently
Last edited by SilentTempest; November 2nd, 2006 at 23:35.
While I do agree in principle with number6 and most others (since a GM with Holocaust is a darned expensive model!), I tend to go against conventional wisdom on this one. Granted, I'm not the seasoned veteran that many of my esteemed board members are.
Regardless, GM's are absolute terrors once they get stuck in. The force weapon is marvelous for popping bugzillas and the like, and holocaust fills in any deficiencies in killing hordes. Bear in mind that you get to place the pie-plate o' doom anywhere within base contact of your GM. You can cover a LOT of models with this, particularly as they're all bunched together from piling in. This usually means a LOT of dead gaunts/guardsmen/what-have-you's. And all of them count as wounds inflicted for combat resolution purposes, which can seriously swing the outcome of the combat in your favor, where otherwise you might be taking extra wounds for being outnumbered and losing a combat.
*Whew* that was a bit of a rant, and I do apologize for going on, but to get to the point, I really like the GM + Holocaust combo if you can fit him in.
Ultimately of course, it comes down to personal preference.
And I must admit, I prefer toasty close-range fireballs to... err... not having said toasty close-range fireballs =D.
Anyhoo, there's my 2Â¢.
And apparently I'm a slow poster, as the OP has already talked about some of this... heh, sorry
Last edited by Hasten; November 3rd, 2006 at 00:08.
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