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  1. #1
    Senior Member Captain Snowball's Avatar
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    Statistical armour penetration

    Hi all,

    I wasn't sure whether this has been addressed before but i thought i would stick it here anyways as its the marine army that is most effected by it...

    I was comparing the statistical ability of TLLC and Assault cannons at penetrating different AV values. By taking into account marine balistic skill, percentage of hits and taking into account rending i came up with the following stats.....(Just thought it was interesting)

    Percentage of the time TLLC penetrates:

    AV 14 = 14%
    AV 13 = 29%
    AV 12 = 44%
    AV 11 = 59%
    AV 10 = 74%

    Percentage of the time assault cannon penetrates:

    AV 14 = 29%
    AV 13 = 37%
    AV 12 = 44%
    AV 11 = 44%
    AV 10 = 88%

    As you can see, unless you are specifically targeting AV 11 TLLC's are largely superflous.

    I just thought this may have an effect on army composition and peoples outlook on the effectiveness of assault cannons over TLLC's...

    Also, if anyone would like a statisitcal comparison of any other weapon feel free to reply or PM me and i'll edit it into this post,

    Regards

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  3. #2
    Senior Member distortiondave's Avatar
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    That is interesting, but maybe a fairer comparison would be to compare how well the AC does at 48/60" range (i can't remember which it is....)

    Now, I realise that that is an impossible comparison, but you are adding the advantage of one (rending) whilst not taking into account the advantage of another (range).

    This may seem a little spurious, but in game terms the TLLC is going to be able to shoot at a vehicle earlier, meaning at least one or two more rounds of shooting.

    For the sake of fairness, assume both were mounted on a dreadnought. Over a six turn game, the dread with a TLLC will pose more of a risk to oncoming vehicles than the one with the AC.

    Stats are good, but they are just numbers. You could use a meltagun as an example if you take into account it's ubershort range, and I'm sure that will win out. Doesn't mean it's a better weapon tho.
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  4. #3
    Senior Member Captain Snowball's Avatar
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    Yes i realised the range difference but forgot to add it into my post...

    The range would become irrelevant in such things as city of death but in standard missions the TLLC would have the advantage of range.....(48" i think)

    Still, i just thought it was interesting to note just how more effective the assault cannon was at close range....

    Regards
    Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. After that, who cares, your a mile away and you have his shoes!!

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  5. #4
    Senior Member Ratus's Avatar
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    Couldn't resist:
    Multimelta @ 24":
    AV 10 = 55%
    AV 11 = 44%
    AV 12 = 33%
    AV 13 = 22%
    AV 14 = 11%

    Multimelta @ 12":
    AV 10 = 67%
    AV 11 = 65%
    AV 12 = 61%
    AV 13 = 56%
    AV 14 = 46%

    Values are calculated in the same way as Capt. Snowball's with hitting probabilities. The result clearly shows the need to get within 12".

  6. #5
    LO's unofficial Jester Visitor Q's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by distortiondave View Post
    That is interesting, but maybe a fairer comparison would be to compare how well the AC does at 48/60" range (i can't remember which it is....)

    Now, I realise that that is an impossible comparison, but you are adding the advantage of one (rending) whilst not taking into account the advantage of another (range).

    This may seem a little spurious, but in game terms the TLLC is going to be able to shoot at a vehicle earlier, meaning at least one or two more rounds of shooting.

    For the sake of fairness, assume both were mounted on a dreadnought. Over a six turn game, the dread with a TLLC will pose more of a risk to oncoming vehicles than the one with the AC.

    Stats are good, but they are just numbers. You could use a meltagun as an example if you take into account it's ubershort range, and I'm sure that will win out. Doesn't mean it's a better weapon tho.

    Good point, but 48" in game terms is actually a huge distance. The chances are neither weapon will utilise there full range potential (as terrain will block vision etc). The melta gun by comparision has got a short range in 'real' terms.
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  7. #6
    Son of LO LordLink's Avatar
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    Yes assault cannon is shorter range but it is infinitely better against all other targets.

    It has the potential to deal more damage (twin lascannon can only ever get 1 hit, assault cannons can get more).

    It is cheaper.

    So yes the assault cannon might be about equal at tank hunting as your ultimate tank hunting gun but it also does everything else better as well.

    Thats why I dislike marines, you guys have just become a one trick pony. I thought you were meant to be the all-rounder race but now you have a few ultimate things and several obsolete things. Its like a remake of the old eldar codex. Anyway sorry about that I'll stay on topic from now on.
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  8. #7
    Member snazzed's Avatar
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    I agree, range CAN BE huge

    I (Marine) often play my Brother (Ork) and we do turn based terrain layout as well. Because he is Assaulty and I go Shooty (against him), I am often removing terrain pieces when it's my turn... I try to create good fire lanes because...

    He fields a Looted Leman Russ (always deployed in a waaaay back corner) and I want my TLLC/ML Venerable Tank Hunting Dread to be able to open fire on it from Turn1. When my opponent has a 72" range Ordnance weapon, there is no way I'm putting an Assault Cannon on Mr. Dread and trying to march him within 24". I also don't want to Drop Pod him in because he may not even show up until the Battle Cannon has shredded some of my more valuable units.

    My 2 cents... there are some situations where the 48" Range is critical and the Assault Cannon is innapropriate.

    Snazzed

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    Not that I'm trying to cast doubt on the results, but I'd like to see the math you're doing to get it.

    Percentage of the time assault cannon penetrates:

    AV 14 = 29%
    AV 13 = 37%
    AV 12 = 44%
    AV 11 = 44%
    AV 10 = 88% - This percentage seems REALLY high for needing a 5+ to penetrate...
    May your aim be true, and your targets plentiful.

  10. #9
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    There are several ways marines break high armor targets. The primary options are Lascannons, Assault Cannons, and Melta type weapons. The deciding factor tends to come down to a combination of "How fast do I have to start hitting that big target" and "How close am I likely to get something to it."

    If you need something under fire from turn one and you're not all that likely for whatever reason to get anything close to it, use a lascannon.

    If you can afford to wait for a bit, and you think you can get a unit close enough then perhaps you can get an assault cannon on it. Either via drop podding dread, or a landspeeder or something.

    If you think you can wait and want to make triple sure it's going to die then get some melta armed tac squads, some suicide landspeeders, or maybe try to infiltrate a devastator squad and blow it up with some melta weapons.

    Melta weapons and Lascannons are also useful for making Instant Death attacks on enemy characters or multi-wound models. Assault Cannons tend to be good for causing multiple wounds not always insta-gibbing.

    But that's just my understanding of the various weapons and their uses.

    Your milage may vary.
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  11. #10
    Orks_n_Bugs Bugs_n_Orks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Escaflowne View Post
    Not that I'm trying to cast doubt on the results, but I'd like to see the math you're doing to get it.

    Percentage of the time assault cannon penetrates:

    AV 14 = 29%
    AV 13 = 37%
    AV 12 = 44%
    AV 11 = 44%
    AV 10 = 88% - This percentage seems REALLY high for needing a 5+ to penetrate...
    make sure you take into account the fact that the ass. cannon gets 4 shots.

    4 shots x 2/3 chance of hitting x 1/3 chance of penetrating = .888888888 = 88.8%
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