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Master-crafted weapon - Definitely not worth the same amount of pointsas a Space Marine, Space Marine commanders have a high enough WS thatthey should hit with most of their attacks, and if you want to re-rollhits, you might as well get a chaplain.I find this fascinating--clearly, whoever wrote this didn't bother to think the issue through.Terminator honours - Give this to every IC. You need as many attacks as you can get. Think of paying a marine’s worth of points for an attack that does more than the marine could do.
Let's compare the two. Terminator honours gives you an extra attack, while Mastercrafting only lets you reroll a single failed attack roll. The one may appear much better, untill you consider that rerolling a missed attack is exactly the same as taking another attack. The description "+1 attack in any combat round during which the bearer misses at least one attack" would apply perfectly.
Now, without any wargear what-so-ever, a Space Marine character makes three WS 5 attacks. Hitting on threes, as he will against the vast majority of enemies, you should expect the Marine character to miss one attack. Not only is the average number of misses a full one, but the probability of not getting a single miss is marginally less than 30%. If you give your character the nigh-obligatory double-close-combat-weapons, the probability of a re-roll failing to be identical to another attack is less than 20%--and that's not counting charge bonuses or the possibility that the character has terminator honours. With the full six attacks we expect our charging characters to have, there is less than a nine percent chance that every attack will connect.
Now, I agree--Terminator honours is clearly the better choice. Though the odds are heavily in favour of the two performing identically through-out the course of a game, the Terminator honours will always grant an extra attack, and there is the chance that the Mastercrafting will not. However, I can't understand how one person could both glorify Terminator honours as a 'must have item' while simulatenously stating that the only-marginally-worse Mastercrafting option should never be taken.
Now, to qualify. I would not mastercraft the weapon on either a librarian with Veil of Time or a Chaplain. Re-roll effects don't stack, and both of these characters generate enough re-rolls on their own to make master-crafting redundant. Eliminating these two characters hardly makes Mastercrafting a 'never take' item, though.
So, what is it? Have those who agree with the author of our HQ article simply not bothered to actually think about what mastercrafting does for a character? Is an issue of diminishing returns? (I sort of doubt it--more attacks might decrease in value at some point, but even a character with six swings and a reroll--seven swings, basically--will only kill two or three marines on average. Attacks would only seem to suffer from diminishing return at the point at which you're likely to be killing more models than are in the units you're likely to be attacking--and that takes way more than seven swings.)
What has biased people against Mastercrafting?
Last edited by Bean; November 30th, 2006 at 05:35.
That you always take terminator honours 1st. Once you've gotten that you don't want master-crafted as that makes your HQ just plain expensive.
Chaos have an interesting situation with spiky bits and master-crafted, identical effects, different costs.
PS: can you master-craft a crozius or force weapon? I thought you could only master-craft things you were actually taking from the armoury and not weapons they already had.
"Grants one extra attack" sounds better than "Re-roll one failed attack." It's the preferred option for much the same reason missile launchers are preferred to multi-meltas; they're cheaper and they do much the same thing in a slightly more efficient fashion. People would buy a master-crafted weapon, but you have to factor in the fact that people have this odd tendency to forget they get that extra reroll. I do it surprisingly often, in fact.
And in fluff terms, Space Marines get terminator honours a lot more often than they get super-duper swords.
The above poster = Totally a member of the Fluff Masters Clan. Click here for fluff pwnage.
Come, sons of LO! Kneel before Poodle!
Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."
I'm not sure whether you can mastercraft a crozius or force weapon, but it hardly matter since you can mastercraft the bolt pistol for the same effect.
I just can't accept that the first fifteen points is always worthwhile but the second fifteen points is never worthwhile. I suppose it would depend on the rest of the list and how many discretionary points one ended up with. If I had only had 15 discretionary points to spend, I'd buy the T-honours first, but if I had another, and an HQ worth putting T-honours on (which wasn't one of the HQ's I specifically excluded in my original post) I would certainly mastercraft the weapon.
I guess what I'm really getting at is that the entry for Mastercrafting in our FAQ is very unfair. It fails to address what the problems with the upgrade actually are, and dismisses it out of hand without actually discussing how it compares to terminator honours (since terminator honours are the most comparable). It seems like an error to praise terminator honours so highly and besmirch mastercrafting so heavily without bothering to demonstrate an understanding of the very marginal differences between the two.
Last edited by Bean; November 30th, 2006 at 05:46.
The extra points is sometimes spent on master-crafted. Its just I don't think it affect chaplains and librarians and people usually don't like uber commanders.
Surely if you master-craft the bolt pistol it only works if you choose to use the bolt pistol in close combat?
I concur with your assesment. When I play marines I always mastercraft and give terminator honours to captians and masters. When I have spare points I mastercraft hidden powerfists (though this is less common because of the chance they don't get to strike because my opponents often don't let them strike by removing all models from base to base so that they can not be cut down). I sometimes even will mastercraft my Chaplins weapon...just remember on the second turn of a combat if you kill one more marine because of a master crafted weapon it paid for itself.
When I play chaos I use both mastercrafting and spikey bits...there is nothing more demoralizing than when an opponent gets to pick the dice back up on his most powerful weapon and reroll a miss...when it happens twice your heart just sinks because that is almost a garauntee that another enemy is going to die in every round of combat. Well worth the points.
And instead of taking it to kill that one more marine people usually prefer to spend the points for 1 more marine in their own army.
Well, look at it this way, link. A master with terminator armour and lightning claws is 130 points, and does an average of three wounds against marines in close combat on the charge, and 2.5 marines on a non-charge turn. With a reroll, his average would be insignificantly less than three marines on non-charge turns, and nearly three and a half on charge turns. An increase of .5 kills is a 20% increase in effective damage output on non-charge turns and a 16.7% increase in effective damage output on charge turns. When you compare that to the 11.5% increase in cost that mastercrafting incrues and consider the fact that a lot of what you're paying for on the Master is his leadership ability, it becomes clear that you're really still getting a good deal for your points--if you expect your master to get into close combat (and if you don't expect him to get into close combat, why bother giving him any gear at all?)
Also, I checked the marine codex and BGB regarding mastercrafting weapons:
-Mastercrafting a bolt pistol wouldn't work--it would only apply to the pistol's ranged attacks.
-It isn't exactly clear in the BGB, but I would say that you are probably right--a mastercrafted close combat weapon, say, wouldn't grant you a reroll if you were using the profile of your force weapon instead.
-However, the Mastercrafting entry doesn't specify that it may only apply to a weapon taken from the armoury. It does have a section which describes how to deal with the cost of a weapon which is both master-crafted and selected from the armoury, but it seems clear that the mastercrafted weapon can be one that the character has be default. Feel free to read it yourself and let me know if you disagree.
edit: If you'd rather pay 15 points to bring one more marine of your own than to get an average one extra kill (though, of course, an extra swing doesn't generate anywhere near a whole extra kill) per close combat round, why buy terminator honours at all? It doesn't net you significantly more kills than mastercrafting, and it costs the same points.
I could see an argument for either taking or leaving mastercrafting or terminator honours--what I can't see is a good argument for taking t-honours and leaving mastercrafting, except in the few select cases I've already mentioned.
Last edited by Bean; November 30th, 2006 at 06:05.
The main problem i have is that a master crafted power weapon costs the same amount of points as a set of lightning claws... and the claws will perform much better.
2000pts Orks 4-2-1
Sure, but mastercrafted lightning claws will perform even better still. Regardless, Mastercrafting and Lightning claws aren't really comparable wargear options at all.
Do you ever take either a power weapon or lightning claws without Terminator honours? Why don't you get rid of terminator honours on all your power-weapon bearing commanders and upgrade the power weapon to lightning claws with the extra points? The upgrade to lightning claws is better than Terminator honours, too, after all.