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I'm thinking of adding a squad of scouts to my army. I know tactics and weapon selection for scouts have been debated at length before but I'm looking for advice specifically for using them against Imperial Guard.
I really like the look of the sniper troops but was wondering if they're worth taking against IG? Or, for less points, would it make more sense to have a bolter/HB squad or ccw setup?
Also, I know it's not very popular with many Marine players, but does anyone think that a shotgun squad might have some use against Guard troops? (Shotgun models look cool!)
For info, my army is quite shooty...
1 Commander + HQ (with x2 HBs),
4 tactical squads (with MG, MM, HB, LC, PC, x2 PGs),
1 Assault squad (with x2 flamers + vet serg),
1 Devastator squad (with x3 MLs & Tank Hunter skill)
1 Venerable Dread (LC/ML Tank Hunter skill)
1 Dread (CCW/HF, AC) and Drop pod
1 Razorback (H
As an IG player I have gone against all sorts of SM players with all sorts of equiping for their scouts. Unfortunatly it all depends on the opponents army. If they are shooty getting in CC will be helpful. If you are playing cityfight CC, shotguns,and flamers are good. In an open map heavy bolters are good. If they are tank heavy I would equip accordingly.
Overall I would say the best thing you could do would be to equip them to take out commanders that are in cover or far away from the front lines. The key to killing IG is killing their commander so they don't get his LD.
Ok so remember yuo want CC nothing else, unless your using tanks for anti armour or anti hq, thats all you should use shotting with. Everything else should be cc. make sure his guns are useless, so infiltrate your scouts to do 2 things either: 1. infiltrate to get to his HQ or big guns. OR 2. Use as a diversion/meat shield for yuor other boys to get closer for more cc. make sure that your rhino holds your best squad.
Scouts, a good choice against Guard, a nice cheap alternative than throwing the Tactical Squad at their squads.
Personally, I'd get into CC as fast as I can against any Imperial Guard army, but you need to think about this from a tactical Standpoint. Lets take a look:
Space Marine Scout:
Exact same stats as a Space Marine, but with only one less armour point, not bad, considering that they don't require a trait to get CC weapons.
The epitome of average-ness. Threes all around, not a great shooter, not a great fighter. Low armour, so should fall easily.
So, now we can establish that the Scout is superior in every way to a Guardsman. Easy, but that's on a one-one basis. Usually, you'll have 2 or 3 guardsmen for every one scout. Not good. This is why I emphasise the use of CC weapons again.
You'll get two attacks from one guy over three attacks from three guys. Quantitatively, they have more attacks, and the advantage. But Qualitatively, Scouts have the advantage with more attacks from one mini, and can hit better and harder. So, let's think qualitatively here.
30 Guardsmen=30 attacks against Space Marine Scouts
Avg hit: 15
Avg wound: 5.
Avg kill: 2.5 (3)
Not great, considering the number of guardsmen present.
Ten Space Marine Scouts with Close Combat Weapons against Imperial Guardsmen
Avg hit: 12(13)
Avg wound: 8
Avg kill: 3(4)
The scouts, ON AVERAGE, are more likely to get more casualties than THIRTY guardsmen. 3 to 1 number advantage.
While games don't operate on averages, so this isn't steadfast, but I highly suggest the use of Close Combat Weapons against Imperial Guardsmen.
Space Marine Scouts (10)
9x Close Combat Weapons
Very inexpensive, and the power weapon is there just for some guaranteed kills. Guardsmen sergeants can't get power weapons, so you're safe there.
Plus, you can block all the pesky heavy weapons in and behind their squads, that way you can use them as a screen to safely advance your army.
- Even at a 3 to 1 disadvantage, ON AVERAGE, Scouts will get marginally more kills than Guardsmen in Close Combat.
- Space Marine Scouts are just the same as Tactical Marines, save their armour, and they hid better and harder than Guardsmen.
- The ability to take Sergeant weaponry on basic squads and the option for CCW's only works to benefit you.
Truthfully, anything you can give your scouts is a good choice.
BP/CCW... Adrian's monolithic block o' wisdom there covered that pretty well. Suffice to say, bad day to be guardsmen.
Plain old Bolters... Hey, if they're good enough for everybody else in the army, right?? Good, solid gun, chews up Guard like wet napkins, free, and the scouts are still solid in combat... Toss on a Heavy Bolter if you like and Guard will evaporate from this squad. What more do you want?
Snipers... Well, this one's a bit of a stretch. For raw lethality, you're much better off taking Bolters. This one's really relying on pinning that nasty Lascannon platoon before they cut your (insert juicy target of choice here) to ribbons. Unless you're specifically going for pinning, skip these. (Carnifexes/Wraithlords/C'tan/etc. are where these guys really shine.)
Shotguns... I really don't see the taboo here. I love shotguns. My CC scout squads never leave home base without at least a couple. True, they don't fight quite as hard, and true, they don't go through Guard armor like Bolter shells, but the extra shots in that last salvo before the fighting starts can pick off a few more guys and quite nicely secure a win. Up close, brutal, and they look sweet, too!
With any of these options, take a Power Weapon if you're likely to see combat. it's just common sense.
Bolter and Close combat weapon:
This won't be affective against guard at all all guard army's are shooty no matter what. Unless the player dosent know how to play them.:yes:
I assume you will plan on infiltrating them but that won't work to well because they will be the first thing shot at. And even if you have them start normally they won't do to well trying to get close to the guard.
Same concept as above have to get pretty darn close and you just won't get there.
Snipers with missle launcher or heavy bolter:
This in my opinoin would be the best choice pinning the guard squads possibly destroying the crap out of a vehicle. Sounds like fun to me I would definatly choose this one.
Mmmm.... *thinks really hard*
It have to go with The Toon on this one. Indeed, if the Guard gets into CC thats a bad thing. CCW + Bolt Pistol is in theory nice, but if they would be in front of my line (I play Guard) then everything would rip on it until it dropped and trust me, they will.
Personally I would go with the snipers, because Guard morale isn't great. That Missile Launcher is nice too. Let it shoot Kraks if your opponent is in Close Order Drill! That is good for many kills. Force a pinning test as often as possible, which they will fail regularly. But the best thing is that they cant shoot on the same range as you (save heavy weapons, for which you should look out).
An other option is that you infiltrate your men (See, but can't be seen) and just charge them as soon as possible. Guardsmen don't like that one bit! If you do that Scouts w. CCW + Bolt Pistol could work.
Thanks for your views. An interesting mix of opinion there and it does seem that all of the main squad combinations have their plus points vs IG. Also, as mentioned, a lot depends on the type of battle and terrain to be most effective.
I think I'll probably opt for a standard bolter squad with PW sergeant and maybe a HB to start with. This would give me chance to see how they perform as a cheaper alternative to a tactical squad but with the benefits of infiltrating (one of my main reasons to include them). Also, I like the fact that scouts can have a mix of weapons in one squad. For this reason I could add a few shotgun scouts to the squad in the invent that charging into cc is necessary. (Hope I'm reading the codex right on this).
Although ccw scouts clearly get a lot of support I'm a not sure I'll invest in them straight away. This is mainly because I think the models don't look as good as the bolter/shotgun/sniper figures. Not a great reason to overlook them I know, but I'm as much interested in the look of my army as well as how it performs from a gaming view point.
The sniper scouts look great but, for the time being, I may hang on before I get some. Their ability to pin down enemy troops could be really useful. However, I not convinced I'll have much success with this as my brother (IG player) uses his commander's to boost the Guardsmens' Ld. (Not certain how but think it's something to do with Vox communicators or summut!).
Ok one quick thing you versing imperial guard...imperial guard....imperial guard....imperial guard. (echos in the cave)
I understand you like the looks of your army but the sniper scouts look friken sweet and so does and any model holding a rocket launcher. Think about it he will be like arnold swartzinager " I will be back with weapons." Now who dosent want a scout saying that. Close combat scouts just won't be the way to go against guard they will blast you to bits before you are even withen twelve inches of them. Snipers with a rocket launcher.hmmm....sounds pretty good to me pinning tons of imperial guard that would be fun. Shot guns again your not going to get that close I would go with tactics first then go for looks. That is why half of the people make an army because they think they look cool. But they normally go for the tactical buying first then they go to the cool looking stuff buying.