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Hey guys, just throwing this out there for a little tactical advice.. I've been playing a series of games against a friend of mine who plays Alpha Legion, and he's been kicking the crap out of me all over the place lately. I've tried a few approaches to my army setup and tactics, but so far nothing's been able to topple him.
The main jist of his army:
- A Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor with a Dark Blade, Furious Charge, Daemonic Flight, Daemonic Resilience, and a couple other goodies... Goes with a retinue of Chosen with DF and Power Weapons, which makes him a NASTY close combat fighter.. He infiltrates behind cover close to my army and is usually in CC on the first turn, if not the second.
- A Defiler and a Predator, for Heavy Support... Both have Mutated Hull, so the Pred is an AV 14 on the front and the Defiler's up to a 13... The Defiler tends to hide in the back and use Indirect Fire, while the Predator will get in my face and start sniping at my armor.
- A Sorcerer with a Chaos Spawn, using Wind of Chaos a lot... Not a big problem, I've managed to neutralize him fairly well the last few games
- A Dreadnaught with Mutated Hull, so it's at AV 13
- Deep Striking Obliterators
- And a few Tactical Squads
My biggest problems lie with his Lord and the vehicles... I've tried throwing a Jump Pack Chaplain with a squad of Assault Marines + Power Fist at him, and he still comes out on top every time thanks to his high initiative and super high S attacks. Even when I do inflict wounds, the Chosen soak them up, and the Lord just cuts through my unit and heroes like butter.
As for the armor, the Defiler is hard to get to, since his ENTIRE army, save for the vehicles, are Infiltrating. Most of my anti-armor stuff has a hard time making it to the Defiler, and even then, all the vehicles have such high AV that it's hard to punch them.
Any advice, o great Space Marine gurus?
I didn't know a model could have a deamonic flight rule in terminator Armor?
Isn't that effectively making a Terminator a jump pack troop?
Oh well maybe i gotta read the codex more..
Anywho that is why you make him place his defiler..
Then put your tank busters in locations that have a clear lane of fire...and WILL have a clear lane of fire if he moves it, which i doubt he will because he won't be able to effectively shoot.
So....if his guys infiltrate....oh well..get that defiler...then setup so you can countercharge his charging units..because they will probably try and single out your tank busters because he thinks his defiler is this precious thing that shouldn't be hurt.
that pred i wouldn't worry about...chances are it won't be able to effectively use all it's armament in any one turn..
I'd focus on making the lords squad go through as much shooting as possible before he can close into CC...so single shot..then move...then rapid fire...then let him close and counter assault....
As for his tactical squads....who knows what to do with them....shoot them as you would a tac squad.
Infiltrating chaos isn't as hard to deal with as you think it is..because i's all up to chance on how well they fare through the terrain....just make sure they are mre than 6+ inches into the terrain...so they can't shoot you before you plan on getting close to the terrain their in....
friend of mine has a similar setup...A Lascannon pred...
Typhus, and infultrating plague marines and a Defiler...
I pop his defile first turn every round..because his pred can never do any more damage than 3 kills per turn on any squad..and that's kinda unlikely he will get all 3 weapons to bare...if he does..then his side is usually vulnerable from the other side of the field..
as for his typhus..i usually LET him get into combat with a weaker 5 man squad.....then I charge in with my librarian and force weapon his azz
Sorcerers i've never dealt with...but eh...how hard can they be..
Ok. I'm an Alpha Legion player. I think there are some legality issues here:
1. terminator armour lords cannot infiltrate and cannot have daemonic flight. Your friend must be using daemonic armour and daemonic aura (which eat up his daemonic gifts limit).
2. Independant characters are treated as seperate entities in CC. You can choose which of your models is engaged with the Lord. HE can not spoon off any Powerfist attacks onto his chosen mates.
It's for this reason that hidden powerfists are so lethal against ICs.
Alpha Legion are touch as nails when used properly. You have a lot of meqs in your face and then some nasty machines spawning doom on you. But I think that marines have a few tricks up their sleeve too.
I'd strongly recommend Landspeeders (torando pattern) the assault cannon should really smash his squads in.
Secondly.. i'm no marine expert.. but do assault marines have hit and run? if so, can you not use melta bombs against the vehicles? Mutated hull or no, melta bombs will .. er.. melt any armour they attack.
I'm rooting for Alpha LEgion naturally, but good luck Kick his ass, it'll do him the world of good.
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric
As far as the CC legality issue, I'm not sure why I said that, lol -- I was probably too fired up, we haven't had that issue.. I can and do target his Lord with attacks actually, so just ignore that part But yea, he effectively uses Daemon Armor/Aura to simulate Terminator Armor.
Assault Marines dont' have hit and run, but they can use Melta bombs... My only problem is that I have to be torn on where to use my Assault Marines... They can either try to do their best to take down the Lord and his Chosen, as they're probably the best CC unit in my army, OR they could try to speed across the battlefield to MB the Defiler, which puts them at risk of taking a LOT of fire on the way up.
The LSTs sound like a nice idea, although a strong breeze could blow them up. If your opponent is smart, those will go down... but they can also snipe anything.
Alas, Assault Marines don't come with Hit & Run like Raptors. They are good units, but there are reasons why Assault Marines are cheaper than Raptors.
I'm not sure I would throw Assault Marines at an expensive unit like tooled-up Chosen with a Terminator Lord. You could do 2 full units of CC Scouts (plus Powerfist-y Sergeants) for a little more expense than one Assault Marine Squad... although if he's Flying (?), then maybe you don't always get to choose who the Lord assaults.
If you can shoot the Lord, then shoot the Chaos Lord... but if you can't, I probably wouldn't try to out-do Chaos CC units in terms of unit quality.
Also, if you Infiltrate some units (i.e. Command Squads or Veterans with Infiltrate, the inexpensive Space Marine Scout), you can mess up his Infiltration... and possibly get the jump on his Defiler via Infiltration, depending on how he sets up. Even a single Infiltration unit can force him further back, if that's what you are after.
It sounds like a pretty expensive Chaos list to have all those goodies... you must be playing at a pretty high point level.
We play at 2,000 points, so yeah -- there's definitely a lot of room to play around with things.
Infiltrating Veterans might not be a bad idea, maybe tooled up with a meltagun or missile launcher to help take down the Defiler... As for the Predator, I guess it's just a matter of trying to outdo that crazy AV 14, which isn't easy.
As for his Lord -- since he and his retinue have Flying, I very rarely get the drop on him, and he pretty much picks and chooses when and where to fight. Shooting against him is tough though, with T5 and a 2+ Armor Save... I could turn my heavy weapons against him, but then again that would pull them away from the beefed up Predator and Dread
Like Karmoon, I'm also a chaos player (not Alpha Legion though). No offense to your friend, but his army is a poor substitute for Alpha Legion. For one thing, A.L. is a troop-based army that utilizes a large number of infiltrating units. It seems as though he's investing too many points into choosen and heavy options. This can (and most certainly should) work to your advantage.
H.Q. w/ Retinue: How many marines are in the retinue? On a guess, I would venture between 5-6. There's a reason why this retinue is doing so well. He's likely invested over 600 points into the unit. No wonder it's doing so good. The best way to deal with this squad is, as Karmoon indicated, Landspeeders. Plasma guns will reign havoc on the chosen as well. A pair of 7 man tactical squad with a plasma gun and missile launcher should be sufficient, when tallied with a couple of Landspeeders. You should be able to whittle this unit down to just the h.q. & 1-2 chosen in a single round.
Defiler & Predator: Mutated Hull definitely makes it difficult to penetrate, but once you do, it should be cake. Most competitive builds utilize Daemonic Possession over Mutated Hull, because it is cheaper and actually does a better job at protecting the vehicle. Oh well, I think mutated hull is better for you than daemonic possession.
Again, Landspeeders work well, as would a cheap razorback w/ a lascannon turret, assuming that is a legal configuration. In my experience, it takes too much time for basic troops to footslog towards these vehicles. Rhinos help, but IMHO, they're always a gamble. Assault units might be good, especially if you can equip the unit with a melta gun. Other than these options, I'm not quite sure what else you can do.
Dreadnought: What is the ranged weapon on this pup? You should be able to ignore the dread for a couple of rounds and direct your tank busting efforts at the predator and the defiler. However, if your friend advances his dread on the first round, you might get a lucky pop shot with a melta gun, while your assault squad is moving towards the defiler.
Obliterators: With any luck these pups won't come on the board untill round 3, at which time you should direct your efforts to killing them. I put obliterators as the primary target, save for the defiler.
At any rate, his build isn't very competitive for an Alpha Legion army. I would think that your best bet is to use lots of basic troops and high strength, low AP weapons. Avoid too many expensive troops, because you don't want to give the defiler a chance to take down 300+ points in a single round.
And good luck.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
i'd say if you are trying to take down his lord, a librarian could be effective.
have a librarium command squad(maybe with a attached chaplain for the rerolls to hit) and give them furious charge. also give him a familier. however, i do suggest you try to keep it as cheap and effective as possible.
use this as a counter charge unit. the thing that makes librarians great character killers is that they have a high initiative, so they will go even before other characters, and you only need to inflict one wound to be able to attempt to force kill him. it works really well. my friend used to field lucious the eternal and it was really funny becuase my librarian and lucious would always end up killing eachother at the same time:lol: (we had practically the same high initiative, so we were striking simutaniously).
also, a few days ago, i killed eldrad this way. anyway, my point is that even ungodly powerful characters can be brought down by a good old dose of force kill.:w00t:
also, a great way to surprise him is to put the command squad in a drop pod and deepstrike them so they can get close enough to charge him when he would least expect it. be careful though not to deep strike too close, or it will backfire and he will charge you!
the defiler could be a problem, but you could use some fast/ monuverable units to take it out.(landspeeders with asssualt cannons are great IMO becuase no matter how high the armor is, a 6 on rending will beat anything. multi meltas are also good).
Last edited by Koss; February 1st, 2007 at 23:36.
That is not dead which may eternal lie,
for in strange aeons even death may die.
Here is an interesting idea that crippled my infiltrating army once.
Infiltrate yourself....and he can't infiltrate too close to your own force because of it.
If you do not see a powerfist in that lord and retinue group....one dreadnought can tie them up for the rest of the game. the dark blade does make him strong but it should be manageable.
his list can be exploited. And it seems a bit costly in my opinion. Go check his point values.
Raven Claws Space Marine Chapter........2500 points
Waagh Rotskrag (in building process)
Member of the Fluffmaster Clan
Yep, having an infiltrating squad or two in your own army can mess up deployment for alpha legion in a lot of cases.
Also a couple of devestator squads with auspexes might not go astray.
"You challenge me knowing that I am Xiahou Dun!?"