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One of my regular opponents plays Black Templar and seldom wins vs my Tyranids, which is beginning to get him down. He tends towards a very fluffy force of large, close-combat tooled squads (10 SMs - bolt pistols and chainswords, plus a melta and powerfist per squad), with few or no vehicles, and few dedicated shooty squads. He loses just about every time, no matter whether I use a balanced list, a genestealer list, a big bug list, or a fast list (albeit this last has proved the most fragile).
Can you gentlemen suggest any assets (equipment or vows or troop types) the Black Templar have that my friend might have neglected?
Are there any general tactical considerations that might help? As the Tyranids I tend to advance powerfully and quickly and so control tempo. Can the BTs reverse this or resist this?
I am hoping also to play a couple of games with him with swapped armies, so I will run the BTs and he will run the bugs.
Any advice appreciated.
Well stomping Nids is a bit of a specialty of mine. However I don't know squat about the Black Templars so bear with me if any of this advice doesn't help him out.
First, anything that can move and shoot is key. Most people don't use them as such, but my terminators have been really successful in all the fights with Nids as long as I used them as mobile firing platforms. Being able to fire in the 13-24" range and move allows me to get in range and back up, giving from 1 to 2 extra rounds before the bugs close. Their Fists make them excellent at taking down big bugs too. Do NOT start them out in reserve. Gear them with Assault Cannons and never use flamers.
Pred Annihilators with Hvy Bolter Sponsons are low cost and also move and shoot as well as provide some AP2 for the hard targets, big fan of those and basic Dreadnoughts. If you're buddy isn't good at positioning these units to keep them out of CC as long as he can he should practice it.
I'd get him to lose most of the CC units, since that's just playing into the Nid specialty. Keep one or two squads around to put out fires that will eventually deveolpe, you don't want to go entirely without CC ability as the end of the match will involve some of it and you don't want them pulling out a victory after you've shot away over half his army on the way in. To this end I would recommend a Vet Sgt with Fist in his Tac squads as well. These have always come in handy near the end of the game. Flamers don't really work that well because your only going to get one shot and plasma really seems to help out more.
One or two rhinos used to set up roadblocks also is good. Anything that you can do to force the stream of bugs into narrow lanes or force them to spend a round taking it out. A few times I've even driven them right up to a swarm of stealers and parked it in their way Anything that prevents them from closing for a round is awesome.
Last edited by slamfu; February 19th, 2007 at 21:34. Reason: typo
Well, as slamfu said, the cc troops need to be thinned down a bit. The termies with assault cannons and storm bolters work well too. Also I would suggest a possible vindicator since there are so many bugs, those ordanance templates are going to kill something no matter if they scatter or not. The rhino roadblock idea is neat too, never really though about it, but it makes sense. You might even be able to tank shock a squad (just hopefull thinking). I would use whatever long distance HW i had to pick off the bigger bugs which can cause lots of damage. Other than that just lots of tac squads with maybe a ML (versitile, can krack or frag, so its good for hard targets or taking out multiple infantry). I don't play Black templars, so other special rules they may have that could help, I don't know, I play DA's, so my plasma cannons in my tac squads help too, but I don't think any other chapter can do this. Hope this helped.
Battlesuits, putting the BS in BullS*%t.
Glad you like the roadblock idea, I've always been rather proud of the confusion its caused if I do say so myself I quoted the stuff above because I think you're better off with a Whirlwind since most of the bugs are going to have a 4+ save at best plus with a range of 24" the vindi is a bit more limited in how many shots its going to get. Also, bug armies are one of those I really find that its better to have a Lascannon than an ML. Any bug with a 3+ is very likely to have that upgraded to a 2+ which means those ML are going to be noticably reduced in effectiveness, plus ML dont do well vs. Zoanthropes which become VERY annoying when they get within range on round 3 or so. 5pts more only and its really worth it in my experience.
I certainly agree that mobile firepower will be helpful. Tyranids are pretty quick, so it's always a good thing to be fast yourself. It gives you a chance to avoid being caught up by nasty assault units before you're ready.
In the Black Templar's shoes, I'd try to take some LST's. They're great at cutting into units like Genestealers, and still throw out enough shots to be dangerous to large broods of Gaunts as well. The Black Templars have few other Fast Attack choices that are truly efficient against Tyranids (Assault Squads being the only other, in my opinion), so it should be safe to load up on these a bit. Taking two units of two should be safe, though if that isn't an option, two squads of a single Speeder will do just fine.
I'm a fan of Rhinos and Razorbacks, thus I believe that the Templars might find these handy. As well as the roadblock tactic mentioned above, Crusader Squads can simply sit inside these transports and fire their special and/or heavy weapons out of the fire points and be immune to assault against Tyranids that are unable to harm the Rhino. This is one time that a flamer may come in handy, as with the Rhino's 12" movement it becomes much easier to get into the flamer 'sweet spot' where the maximum numbers of models can be hit (note that you can't actually move 12" and fire the flamer).
As mentioned before, an Assault Squad may come in handy. Taken in a unit of 10 (led by a Chaplain too if at all possible) and equipped with a single flamer and a plasma pistol they should be excellent for either breaking up the charge of a Tyranid unit before they hit home, or counter-attacking while the Tyranids are already tied up with other Templar units.
Finally, a Land Raider Crusader might be just the ticket, as it can throw out an incredible number of accurate shots at close to medium range and has a thick enough Armor Value to shrug off most of the Tyranid's attempts to stop it. It may or may not be helpful to transport a unit inside. It would really depend on the rest of the army list, the point total being played, etc.
Maybe you could tell your Black Templar friend about this site and have him come here so we can give him more general help as well?
Last edited by Katie Drake; February 20th, 2007 at 02:42.
Thanks for the advice so far! I'll pass these tips on. My friend is aware LO exists but haunts other forums. His loss.
Thanks indeed for the tips, appreciated indeed ladies and gents.
To give you an indication I am now building (in mid sprue ) 2 Tornadoes and a vindicator. Will haul my Land Raider Crusader out of retirement (currently resembles that old car under the sheets in the garage that is awaiting some restoration.)
Oh and my 'most generous enemy for over three years', is also a very good player and great opponent.
when your fighting the Tyranids the quantity of shooting is usualy better than the quality. If your playing a mass numbers army your budy needs to use heavy weapons with alot of shots like assualt cannons and heavy bolters. Also he should think about running with 1-2 Whirlwinds. they dont have the strength of the Vindicator but hes not going for high strength just mass shooting. Pluss he could take the points difference he'll save between the two and give his tactial squads the Heavy bolters.
i say that i agree with slamfu mostly but not 100% i never use termies against nids JUST BECAUSE my oppenent specailizes in genestealers and they rip my termies apart. That being said it is never wise for marines to try to go up against nids in close combat alone. take advantage of the synapse creature rule by focusing some lascannon or autocannon shots at the synapse creatures. also blast weapons for things such as whirlwinds and i beleive some predators? forgive me im not sitting on a codex right now but gunz like that are very effective against all mass amount armies. try to target more squads rather then focusing in on only one. If you can kill enough from each squad it will improve your chances in clsoe combat when it comes to determining who won the combat cuz the nid player i fight loves to get all of his bugs in there. I should say that i dont fully dismiss using termanators against nids but i never do and never will. I dont beleive im a seasoned enough player to be be able to put that many points into my faith and tactics. Hope this helps, good luck..
A feral Ork is a happy Ork.
Yanno actually its because of Genestealers I use them. They basically scare the bejeezus outta me and they seem to close the distance to my guys so fast. Being able to move back 6" the round after I blast them means they are essentially closing the 24" at the rate of whatever their fleet of foot gives them. Which pretty much means its never going to reach them in fighting shape. This depends alot on terrain and deployment of course, but the termies also have the advantage of moving into position and shooting if they have to, which is also key. Just really, really, REALLY make sure you dont start them out where they get bushwacked in the first 2 rounds. But as they say, there's a dozen ways to skin a cat. I'm sure your ways work really well for you
Last edited by slamfu; February 24th, 2007 at 19:39. Reason: edit