Assault marines as a troop choice? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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    Assault marines as a troop choice?

    Hiya all. Im gonna make a SM army when i get the BfM box in a few weeks. But thats not the point. I want to make a fast moving in your face SM army simmilar to the Raven Gaurds. With scouts and few bulky vehicles. Question is: is it possible however impractical to use Assault marines instead of normal marines?


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    Senior Member Stella Cadente's Avatar
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    No, but you can use bikers as troops choices, or give your Tactical squads Bolt pistols and Close combat weapons, or you could take very few marines, maybe scouts, and take assault marines as both Fast attack and elites, there not your troops, but that way you have alot.

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    Illustrator Extraordinair Adrian MalSeraph's Avatar
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    Right, no traits allow for Assault Marines to be used as troop choices.

    Simple as that.

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    Ghost of LO ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar's Avatar
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    However, you can field up to 6 squads with some traits - so they are darn near a troop choice.
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    Blood Angels are able to take tons of jump pack equipped units. In a single FOC, you could have up to 8 by my reckoning.

    3 normal Assault Squads for Fast Attack
    3 Veteran Assault Squads for Elites
    1 Death Company with jump packs for HQ
    1 Honour Guard with jump packs for HQ

    You'd also get Furious Charge for free. Oh, and did I mention that Blood Angels are cool? No? Well guess what? They're cool.

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    Senior Member bladeofdeath3's Avatar
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    well, raven guard can grab 7 if you got shrike. the best part about it is the fact that shrike's raven wing assault squad can be in close combat turn one. infiltrate, scout, move 12", and charge. you dont get to shoot as they all have lighning claws. if shrike were only a chaplain... as for the other squads, you get 3 squads w/ Furious charge for elites and 3 for fast attack.

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    That Which Has No Time Red Archer's Avatar
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    Shrike and his guys is a risky thing. What's cool about Shrike? His weapons and his abilities. But he does not ever have an invulnerable save, which makes him very, VERY vulnerable. So you need to protect him effectively at least from enemy shooting, so you have to give him a squad. The only squad he can take without wasting his abilities is his own veterans. That's cool, because they can really deal out hell. But are they worth it? Look at the points cost for Shrike and his minimum wing, and then think of how much shooting they can resist and how much points go "boing" everytime the enemy scores a hit. And then think of how much overkill this unit is: if they can hurt the enemy at all, then they will probably kill more in one round of CC than they are engaged with.
    If the unit could convert some of its offensive abilities into defense or into free points, than it would grow by far more practical. (For example if some squad members could be equipped with normal CC weaponry as meat shields - Shrike and two or three veterans with lightning claws is way enough, give them 3+ cheap meat shields and they rock. Or give Shrike an invulnerable save. Or just make the whole thing a little less deadly [overkill! believe me] but cheaper... or whatever.)
    [Nonetheless Shrike's wing is so fascinating that a friend of mine has agreed to use my army to represent a Raven Guard force with Shrike and his personally trained veterans in a friendly game on Friday. Just to prove how they work out... If you're interested I can tell you how it's been.]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer View Post
    Shrike and his guys is a risky thing. What's cool about Shrike? His weapons and his abilities. But he does not ever have an invulnerable save, which makes him very, VERY vulnerable. So you need to protect him effectively at least from enemy shooting, so you have to give him a squad. The only squad he can take without wasting his abilities is his own veterans. That's cool, because they can really deal out hell. But are they worth it? Look at the points cost for Shrike and his minimum wing, and then think of how much shooting they can resist and how much points go "boing" everytime the enemy scores a hit. And then think of how much overkill this unit is: if they can hurt the enemy at all, then they will probably kill more in one round of CC than they are engaged with.
    If the unit could convert some of its offensive abilities into defense or into free points, than it would grow by far more practical. (For example if some squad members could be equipped with normal CC weaponry as meat shields - Shrike and two or three veterans with lightning claws is way enough, give them 3+ cheap meat shields and they rock. Or give Shrike an invulnerable save. Or just make the whole thing a little less deadly [overkill! believe me] but cheaper... or whatever.)
    [Nonetheless Shrike's wing is so fascinating that a friend of mine has agreed to use my army to represent a Raven Guard force with Shrike and his personally trained veterans in a friendly game on Friday. Just to prove how they work out... If you're interested I can tell you how it's been.]
    The whole point of Shrike and his wing is that they should never be shot in the first place. It's not the lightning claws that make them scary, it's having Infilitrate and Scout on a unit with a 12" move. Heck, with the changes to Infiltrate, his unit could get a 1st turn assault even without the Scout ability. There's a reason why Chaos units with Flight can't Infilitrate, and you're looking at it. (Though why units with Speed can Infilitrate is beyond me.)

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    That Which Has No Time Red Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechCommander View Post
    The whole point of Shrike and his wing is that they should never be shot in the first place. It's not the lightning claws that make them scary, it's having Infilitrate and Scout on a unit with a 12" move. Heck, with the changes to Infiltrate, his unit could get a 1st turn assault even without the Scout ability. There's a reason why Chaos units with Flight can't Infilitrate, and you're looking at it. (Though why units with Speed can Infilitrate is beyond me.)
    I agree with you there, but it's not really that easy, is it. Have Shrike make his scout move and pose right in front of the enemy. - And then good luck at having first turn!! It's too much of a gamble for my taste (I am biased, though, as I have only had first turn in as few as 16.7% of all my games - every time I roll a 6 my opponent does so too... and scores better in the reroll).
    If you fail to go first it is very likely that Shrike and his wing will take heavy casualties being that close, exposed and without any support in view. Even if you put him behind cover and make use of the Stealth ability: your opponent won't care about your armor or cover save and just rapid fire the hell out of your squad, in the worst of the best cases (only Shrike and 4 veterans in the squad, but they all get wiped out) you lose points for a squad of 9 Terminators (!) with an assault cannon!

    [Other dangers also lie in enemy units that can tie up your squad and thus make all those points a big waste. When I think of the battle coming Friday where I want to try out Shrike I fear the enemy Scarabs the most. Can you imagine that? Those cute little beatles being my greatest nightmare? They move unhindered through any cover, 12" far and assault another 6". They have 3 wounds a model and my opponent usually employs two big squads (I think there will be about 9 in a squad). And they're fearless and never ever run away!
    Now suppose the Necron player has turn 1 and just assaults Shrike and his wing with those nasty little beasts... If I'm lucky my 5-man squad will kill 3 bases per turn, meaning it will be tied up pretty much useless for at least 3 turns of CC - it better be 4 (but never 5) or it's the opponents turn after consolidation and Shrike will get blasted or tied up again. And when it hacks and slashes free of those Scarabs it has earned back almost a quarter of its points... hooray! That's not much fun, especially since we are talking about a good quarter of my 1,5k points army!]

    Shrike and his wing are cool. Really. But I am not the risky type of player, and thus I prefer the employment of more standard-issue squads that are by far cheaper and by far less capable but therefore also by far more reliable in their performance.
    (Yes! For me it's rather a unit that's supposed to suck, than pay for a unit that shouldn't but will eventually do so nonetheless...)
    Last edited by Red Archer; February 22nd, 2007 at 01:19.

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    Senior Member Gman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Dacius View Post
    Hiya all. Im gonna make a SM army when i get the BfM box in a few weeks. But thats not the point. I want to make a fast moving in your face SM army simmilar to the Raven Gaurds. With scouts and few bulky vehicles. Question is: is it possible however impractical to use Assault marines instead of normal marines?
    Not as troops no. But there is a trait you can take that allows them to be taken as elites as well as fast. So that's 6 units of assault marines. Then just take 2 units of scouts as your 2 troop choices and there you got. Heck take a chaplain with jump pack as your HQ and add him to one of your assault marine units and it's a fast moving hard hitting army.

    Give the SGTs powerfists. If you give the scouts all sniper rifles and a missle launcher, they can stay at range and fire at your enemy, and maybe even pin something so your assault squads don't loose any models if you assault that turn. In the White Dwarf from last month, the guy who wrote the tactica aritle made the army you are speaking of. He used the two scout units as his troops choices, one was made with pistols and CCW and the other bolters I think.
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