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A while back i sold my space marines becaue I found that everyone who has every played 40K had one. But now with the DA out i decided i liked the new moddles and I always like the idea of hunting the fallen. I bought the codex just this week and while i like what i see there are 2 things im having problems with.
1)Why dose Belial only have 3 attacks? He's suposed to be the number one Deathwing Terminator but for some reason he dosnt come with Terminator Honors. Im hopeing that im wrong on this that GW just assumed that we would know to include the Honors attack when we played but, on the other hand they took the time to include the 2+ Terminator armour save in his profile but didnt add the +1 A for Honor.
2)While I like the DA they feel to me like ultramarines painted green and given fearless. With the exception of a Ravenwing army they dont seem to have much that sets them appart from any other chapter. Most the rules are the same you have your basic choice of Terminator, Marine, and Scout. And the average set of tanks follows them. It would be nice of GW to take remaking the SM codex's as a chance to give them all somthing that sets them appart from the other chapters besides paint. In this case it would have been easy. The biggest thing about DA is that there hunting the fallen, so why arn't they trying to capture an enemy HQ to question? What were gona end up with is DA are ultramarines who are fearless, Blood Angles can be the ultramarines with Furious Charge, and well make the Space Wolves the ultramarines with Counter-Attack. It will be less of picking an army you like and more about choose your favorate collor.
Dark Angels (and blood angels) should just be "Space Marines with attitude" - They don't differ from the codex astartes hugely, but do certain things very different from the Ultramarines and their friends.
Dark Angels therefore do have a different play style to Codex Marines, but not as radically different as Black Templars or Space Wolves. I expect the strategies employed by DA players to be very different from the "basic" marines even though they share the "same" units.
Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.Originally Posted by amishcellphone
Gettin rid of the hunting the fallen rule sucks. that made games fun as a Dark Angels player. Oh well.
So the argument is, GW-designed chapters are just Ultramarines with a few minor changes?
Frankly, I wish it were that simple, as I'm now back on the fence about whether to rebuild my SMs as DA or a new custom chapter. Me, I'd rather see ALL the "special" chapters being nothing more than just "Ultramarines with attitude." When I first read about all the cool stuff the DA, BT, BA, SW etc. had, then read about how to build my own chapter, I was rather disappointed. All I can make is an "Ultramarines with attitude" chapter, using a handful (at best) of special rules to "tweak" what is essentially a "vanilla" codex army. I don't get to create my own special rules (i.e., blood rage, intractable/fearless), nor do I get to create specialized units (i.e. Tyranid Hunters, Honour Guard) or special characters (Marneus Calgar, Dante, Shrike, Ezekiel, Lysander, Logan Grimnar, among many others). At least, I can't create them and hope to use them in a generic, tournament-or-friendly-game-compatible army.
Granted, no one uses every element of the "cool" stuff like the characters, special units, etc., but they are available, which makes those "special" chapters more than mere "Ultramarines with attitude." So much more, I think, that any custom chapter I build will probably pale in comparison, unless I pull out all the creative stops I can to build something that looks truly unique, and has a good fluff background. To me, that's what really makes a chapter interesting to build, paint, and play against anyway, not what pwnzor special rule or character you can use to carve a swath across the battlefield.
But that's just me, and I have been guilty of doing the "trait advantage/disadvantage shuffle" on occasion, trying to find that "sweet" combination of special rules, so I don't blame those who want to make their chapter special in regards to gameplay, but I hope to spend more time this time around on the background, fluff and painting/modeling scheme, as I did not last time, and wound up with a crappy chapter.
1)Why dose Belial only have 3 attacks? He's suposed to be the number one Deathwing Terminator but for some reason he dosnt come with Terminator Honors. Im hopeing that im wrong on this that GW just assumed that we would know to include the Honors attack when we played but, on the other hand they took the time to include the 2+ Terminator armour save in his profile but didnt add the +1 A for Honor.[/QUOTE]
Any DW squad attached to Belial can take a DW banner. This banner increases the attacks of everyone in his squad. If you have this and get a charge off, thats a large number of hits!
Belial's biggest advantage is allowing you to take DW Terminators as Troops, I would take that over an extra attack any day of the week. All the new DA characters are not just combat monsters, they provide the army with significant bonuses and are much more believable "leaders" as oppose to the guy with the biggest sword.
The DA rules are radically different from the current SM rules and their old 3rd edition rules. Marines really can't have that unique of a play style, but the DA will assuredly operate unlike their brethren from Codex: SM, BA, BT, or SW. The DA are almost pure Codex apart from the RW, DW, and Inner Circle. And Hunting the Fallen was always a background thing, I never found the rule to make much sense and hardly remembered it (nobody bothers interrogating 'nids and I play them the most). I like the way GW is going with the big 4 (most deviant) Chapters, making them different from normal Marines but still Marines.
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Chaospantz, maybe you should take a little closer look at the DA codex and look at the little detail things. I don't even have it yet (seen it) and I know there a lot of things that make the DA different then using CM rules.
1. combat squad rules. There is no other SM army that can do this, and it truely has a lot of potential especially with a lot of tournament missions being decided by scoring units. DA has the potential to put the most scoring units on the table, next to IG.
2. power armor marines come with pistols, frag and krak grenades as standard. The tactical advantage and flexability of this has been heavily discussed on this, and other forums. Shooting once and charging at a closing assaulting enemy is better then rapid firing and taking the charge.
3. using Belial and Samul mean your terminators and bike squads are now troops choice, respectively. This means you can use a bunch of termis or bikes/speeders for your core force and still have FOC slots open for dreads, scouts, assault squads etc. And yes with the new DW and RW army rules you still have access to the rest of the DA army list.
4. the DW terminators get 'deathwing assault'. Getting half your terminator units, rounding up, to deepstrike in first turn with out rolling reserves can make a game. Combine with some ravenwing bikes with their teleport homes and it's funt time.
5. cheaper rhinos and razorbacks with smoke launchers standard means much cheaper mechanized infantry armies. Combine razorbacks with using combat squads and you have a very unique space marine army.
Those are just the things I know about with having it in my hands to read. Like I said, read through it carefully and look at the details of the different units and their wargear and special rules. Oh and you are not reading the stats wrong for the HQs. They purposely left out T. Honors in the options. But if you look, every HQ comes standard with Iron Halo, which before you could only have one in an army and had to pay extra for it.
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I reckon its easy to make a space marine army unique no matter how similar to vanillas they are. just by using the two traits for salamanders you can then take fluffy things that you dont have to take like thunderhammers, heavy flamer termies, flamer assault squads with melta bombs and tactical squads fielding walls of special weapons. plasma guns, multimeltas, flamers, meltaguns and plasma cannons can be taken by almost any squad and dont forget the opitemy of killy salamader squads, 8 thunderhammer assault termies in a land raider crusader. If I went DA id love to have termies as troops, that sounds like buttloads of fun.
you guys keep arguing about it though :argh:
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