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I'm facing off against a marine army tonight and I've decided to go for a different tactic to that which I normally use. Normally when I play against marines I'd use as many weapons as possible that will punch straight through their thrice cursed power armour. Obviously these weapons tend to be a bit on the expensive side and normally only fire one shot per turn. For the game this evening I'm going to experiment with using very little in the way of lascannons, missile launchers, plasmas, meltas and battlecannons and instead concentrate on piling as many multi-shot weapons into my army as I can - I'm talking about heavy bolters and multi-laser toting sentinels here.
What're people's opinions on this approach to dealing with marines? I'll admit that my prime decision to go for this set-up is how impressed I've been with exterminator tanks compared to regular Russes - in this case the increased weight of fire always seems to more than make up for the reduction of gun strength.
So my humble Guardsman's fist is as strong as a blast from his laser rifle?
Ranking of Guard Special/Heavy Weapons Versus MEQ's
1. Plasma: 1 Shot = 0.5 Hits = 0.416 Wounds = 0.416 Deaths = 0.041 Deaths per Point
2. Heavy Bolter: 3 Shots = 1.5 Hits = 1 Wound = 0.333 Deaths = 0.033 Deaths per Point
3. ML (krak): 1 Shot = 0.5 Hits = 0.416 Wounds = 0.416 Deaths = 0.027 Deaths per Point
4. Autocannon: 2 Shots = 1 Hits = 0.833 Wound = 0.277 Deaths = 0.018 Deaths per Point
5. GL (krak): 1 Shot = 0.5 Hits = 0.416 Wounds = 0.138 Deaths = 0.017 Deaths per Point
6. Lascannon: 1 Shot = 0.5 Hits = 0.416 Wounds = 0.416 Deaths = 0.016 Deaths per Point
Well, halfway through writing this I realized this isn't a good way to rank them, because "per point" is only comparing the cost of the weapon - it doesn't factor in the cost of the squad you also need to buy. So, if you factor in the squad cost, the per point difference becomes really tiny:
Ranking of Guard Special/Heavy Weapons Versus MEQ's (including basic squad cost)
1. Plasma: 1 Shot = 0.5 Hits = 0.416 Wounds = 0.416 Deaths = 0.0059 Deaths per Point
2. ML (krak): 1 Shot = 0.5 Hits = 0.416 Wounds = 0.416 Deaths = 0.0055 Deaths per Point
3. Lascannon: 1 Shot = 0.5 Hits = 0.416 Wounds = 0.416 Deaths = 0.0049 Deaths per Point
4. Heavy Bolter: 3 Shots = 1.5 Hits = 1 Wound = 0.333 Deaths = 0.0047 Deaths per Point
5. Autocannon: 2 Shots = 1 Hits = 0.833 Wound = 0.277 Deaths = 0.0037 Deaths per Point
6. GL (krak): 1 Shot = 0.5 Hits = 0.416 Wounds = 0.138 Deaths = 0.0020 Deaths per Point
There. Now it looks just like I had expected it would.
Personally, I hate shooting millions of heavy bolters at marines, it is just so depressing. It seems like no matter if I shoot 5 shots or 20 at them, I'm lucky if they fail a save or two. The only sure way to gun down marines is to penetrate their armor.
Tyranids: 2500 pts
Imperial Guard: 1000 pts
Witch Hunters: 1000 pts
Remember though, multi shot weaponary that doesn't pass through 3+ armour has no penalty when shooting against marines in cover, krak missiles, plasmaguns and lascannons do.
EDIT: For instance, a lascannon firing at a marine in 5+ cover will only "negate" 3's and 4's on the marines save, 5-6 and the marine will still survive, so in a way, "half" of the AP2 on the lascannon is wasted if you get my meaning.
What we learn from this is to ALWAYS take Plasma Gun in any troop squad, they are worth the occasional overheat death.
What this doesn't take into account is the non-troop targets the gun may be good at taking out. The Missle Launcher for example is just about as good per point as the Heavy Bolter, but can also take out tanks and help with Monstrous Creatures. For this reason I like to have Missle Launchers in all my troop squads.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
Yeah heavy bolters and autocannons are good all rounder anti infantry weapons but its always nice to have a weapon with a higher strength to take out that nasty nid monster or some space marine who thinks hes better then everyone else because he has a nice 2+ save.
Im with Diggums in my love for the missile launcher as it acts like a long range plasma gun that doesnt get hot and can also take out tanks and all this for only 5 points more then a plasma gun. Nice!
"Hey sarge, this lasgun is heavy. I wish we had something lighter."
FF7: ABOUT RANDOM BATTLES
I know this sounds picky but im not quite sure if your working out is correct lincoln. Basically the lascannon as you have shown will kill less than a heavy bolter yet when you add in the price it gets better, how can this be when a lascannon costs over twice as much?? personally id work it out slightly different basically:
1. plasma ............5/12
1. melta ..............5/12
1. missile (krak)....5/12
6. heavy bolter .....1/3
8. missile (frag).....1/4
9. grenade (frag)....1/6
10. grenade (krak)..5/36
thats the best weapons for killing them per shot plasma is single and frags are considered to hit three (generous i know but in our games we use frag when they are bunched only so its a good benchmark of when frag is worthwhile.)
now if we then divide this by the points a weapon costs we get the following table
4. heavy bolter .......5/150
5. missile (krak)......5/180
6. grenade (frag).....5/240
8. grenade (krak)....5/288
9. missile (frag).......5/300
as you can see per cost plas and melta are still safe bets on kills multilasers are amazing being just as effective in both categories with heavy bolters next so plas heavy bolter is the ideal special/heavy weapons set up for anti-MEQ points wise. Also not that lascannons are antitank and look how effective they are for their points. id rather use a frag grenade!!
This are my straight forward calculations that follow the following formulae
(weapon shots/2) x (weapons chance of a kill as a fraction) x (1/3, only if less than AP4)
so for heavy bolter
(3/2) x (2/3) x (1/3) = 1/3
then you divide the whole lot by the weapon cost so for the heavy bolter
you get the above. (i know people can back track the weapons costs put i havnt posted them on purpose). generally though if you spent very few points on plas your best bet would be heavy bolters and multilasers on sents. do remember that flamer templates kick arse their kill ratios are disgusting though they end up as single use. i reckon itd take 9 heavy flamers to take down a full ten man MEQ squad compared to the 24 shots from anything else thats that good and if you look at price well they are dirt cheap aswell which puts them at the top of the table if you can get juicy targets!
If you took lasrifles only that would kill roughly 13 MEQ at 1500 points 26 on rapid fire
Add in a load of heavy bolters
add in 3 sents and 9 heavy bolters and thats up to 15 and 28 respective already.
you could get ooo 23 heavy bolters in without sents if you went all infantry thats 18 and 29
basically what im saying is it is viable as an average list will kill 18 MEQ's a turn. also remeber that if you upgrade your sergeant to a vet he can have a stormbolter and thats a multishot special weapon that help avoid plasma its kills are down at the frag grenade end but when price is factored in its as good as a heavy bolter at anti-MEQ.
Hope that helps
PS sorry to have a long post about mathhammer its just a wrote a spreadsheet in excel that means i only have to type in how many weapons of each type i have and itll calculate kills and base points worth of kills against MEQ and guard!
I personally prefer using more shots against my enemies when I play them rather than taking only the guns that canpunch through their armour. The more a unit has to make saves the more chances you have of them failing; stat and probability make most weapons seem useless but they are only ever average results at best...
Take my love, take my land, take me to where I cannot stand; I don't care I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
"The difference between gods and daemons largely depends upon where one is standing at the time."- Lorgar
Member of the Fluff Masters Clan
Thanks for the replies guys.
Regarding all those stats in the above posts - are you taking the weapon ranges into account? If we're talking about plasmas and meltas it's normally going to be at least one turn into the game before they get much of a chance at shooting anything.
So my humble Guardsman's fist is as strong as a blast from his laser rifle?
for all people asking this question, we already had this argument...
http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...esnt-work.html (Weight of fire!!(Doesn't work))
all the sides of the argument...
JOIN MY SQUAD IN THE SONS OF THE LIBRARIUM THREAD, I NEED TACTICAL MARINES! I PLAN TO CONVERT UP A SQUAD TO "COUNT AS" LoTD IN MY SMarine ARMY
just have a suggestion, without taking into consideration the formulae and above posts...
i love the grenade launcher. love it. like 4 lasguns-in-one. i love the template lasgun known as the G Launcher! and if you need to to, fire a single str6 shot (but that rarely happens for me)
now, as agreed with above posts, go the missle launcher. same thing as the G Launcher but stronger! krak some marine outta his shell. or template them, along with the grenade launchers and lasguns to cause headaches.
but overall, you still need to vary your weaponry. why not take some plasma? doesnt need to be too many plasmaguns, but they sure help. id try take a melta or 2, they make people jittery, and if your squad nets a vehicle kill, then you can focus other antitank weaponry to slaughter the marines.
my opinion- grenade launchers and missle launchers. you'll have weight of fire with lasguns, mulit shot weapons and templates, and AT shots from ordanance and misslelaunchers. but try to vary it a little bit, plasma and meltas have their place too.
LO RULESOriginally Posted by Jaffar_Hasad