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I got this idea from Heidelmann's (admittedly ill-advised) topic on the DA codex, when someone (can't recall the name) replied saying that he thought 4th edition Space Marine command units were overpowered, or could be made overpowered.
This isn't something that has ever occurred to me before, because I always thought Space Marines had the most balanced HQ's - and indeed, the most balanced codex - of 4th edition. You don't pay many points, your HQ is still effective, but he isn't a Khornate Daemon Prince that practically plays the game by himself, or a S7 Broodlord with a personal retinue of rending Genestealers. For one, there are no stat upgrades (always a hallmark of the beardy unit) other than Terminator Honours, which is a minor one and reasonably priced. There are no uber-weapons, as each has a distinct purpose, and each of the three commanders has a specific use he's best suited for - Chaplains leading an assault squad (obvious) Commanders for their over-the-board Ld, and Libarians can only use their really good powers in the shooting phase (except for Veil of Time, which is a selfish power since all it does is keep the Librarian alive).
I mean, I didn't see the reasoning in the kind of statement "the DA armoury limits options, which is good, because it means you can't have uber-HQ's with all the equipment you can load on them" when there are things that specifically interfere with that, like weapon limits, terminator-only weapons and Relic items.
Anyway, obviously can't discuss this on Heidelmann's topic because Firedrake rightfully locked it (and locked it darn good and proper) so I thought it merited something of a discussion. Also, I don't know how to make a poll topic. It's probably insanely simple and I'm just stupid for not knowing.
So...what? FotD Librarian on a bike too much for us all these days?
The above poster = Totally a member of the Fluff Masters Clan. Click here for fluff pwnage.
Come, sons of LO! Kneel before Poodle!
Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."
I concur lol. I always thought our SM HQs where always well balanced... they can take down some normal troops like kroot or CSM but can't take down a Carnifex/Daemon prince/Leman russ (the tank or the guy).
-SONS of RUSS member-
Exiled until 5thED redo...
I think that Space Marines characters are great right where they are. Let's take a look.
They retain the basic strength of a Marine, unless given a Powerfist, which negates their fantastic Initiative. They must pay a load of points for extra transport, either from a squad, or a pack or bike. Their abilities don't affect much alone, but with a group (such as the Chaplain) they're good, which should be the case.
They may not be a glaived Berserker Prince, but at least that way, you don't feel it when your character dies.
The libby can be made nasty but you pay the points for it, for the chappy and the captin I see no way at how they might be overpowered.
Papa Karmoon says: "Space marines aren't over powered."
I know it's just my opinion, but I'm getting a wee bit tired of anti marine paranoia all the time. And I play Chaos, I'm your sworn enemy.. or something.
Marine HQs are just fine where they are. They can be nasty, but equally, they're very easy victory points too if used foolishly. That sounds just about like every other unit in the game apart from maybe say, pink horrors.
Don't worry about what other people say. You use your jumping FoTD Libby, and I'll use my Darkblade Lord. We'll meet on the battlefield and we'll have fun.
You play chaos?
Well then you should KNOW what overpowered HQ's are..except you pay ALOT of points for them. My buddy for instance's Demon lord, pretty much can't be shot at...
the one time I did kill him in a game, i assaulted him with 2 6 man squads, one 8 man squad with furious charge, and 1 8 man squad with normal initiative..
and it took 50 some odd attacks for him to go down......
marine HQ....3 guys with bolters can run up and poke him in the eye 3 times and he'll leave.
Marine HQs overpowered? Hardly. Average stats (run of the mill MEQ with some extra wounds and attacks) with a healthy selection of weaponry and some wargear choices.
The only complaints I've ever heard are underpriced Chaplains and potentially deadly Librarians. Chaplains are dirt cheap for a free PW, 4+ inv, Litanies of Hate, and Fearless, but they have to spend more to make them really nasty, and they only confer bonuses onto the unit they're with. Librarians can be deadly due to their many powers. I've always thought FotA was a tad underpriced considered the havoc it can wreak. FotD+Drop Pod can be bad for the handful of Ld-vulnerable armies out there. VoT/MoH can make him into an assaulty beast. VoD and SotEW both suck for the most part. Cods only get 1 power, Epistolaries get 2, and if you trick them out they end up extremely expensive.
Marine HQs aren't overpowered I==M==HO, they really are quite balanced in an overall balanced Codex.
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Demon princes cost basically the same amount as a SM character with all the wargear.. If anyone is overpowered, they are
Having said that, SM characters are there to destroy squads while the squad kills off characters with power fists generally.. Also, SMs can *shoot* big characters first then go in where as Sm characters themselves are safe from that
Even the most powerful HQ's in close combat, such as the chaplain are pretty balanced currently. Really I think GW could make them slightly better, however its more a fluff issue for me. I've always been bothered by say a chaplain leading a furious charge assault squad. But for some reason the chaplain wasn't trained in the arts of furious charge? I've never liked that at all. Seems like the HQs should have mastered those tactics long ago, especially chaplains. However I can see that this would be pretty powerful sometimes, so perhaps it should cost more then what a marine commander pays in a command squad. So it would be nice if traits which offer skills allow marines commanders to use the skill at a higher cost, say 5 or 10 points, depending on the skill.
I've always felt like marine HQs where balanced in close combat, but to weak in the shooting phase (except for librarians). It would be nice, especially for commanders, if they could have a better selection of ranged weapons. It seems like almost every marine HQ is made for close combat, or is made dirt cheap and will have almost no battle role at all. It would be nice to be able to have a shooty commander, with something better with longer range then a plasma pistol, more shots then a combi bolter, and less boring then a storm bolter.