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I've taken both into battle and found mixed results.
- always a target (can force opponent to rethink his shots, redirect shots to bassie...could free scoring units to move...)
- when shots land they are lethal
- w/o indirect fire, useless
- always a target (not a bad tactical move to have one as a distraction)
- scatter may render shot useless
- moderately priced, but could spend points elsewhere to greater effect
- cannot pierce Tau shield drone
I love and hate the Bassie. I love the fear it brings and the fact that it distracts the opponent. I hate the scatter. I've used her in battle many times only to have a few bad rolls end up scattering shots all over the place. Sometimes she's on target and scores a needed shot, but more often than not, she's moody and doesn't land shots accurately when using indirectly.
- Tank busters
- Excellent AP weapon, almost a necessity for tank (or character) busting. However, there are cheaper and just as effective weapons to choose from (AutoCannon)
- Statistically, you can miss half of the time on that ONE roll
- Opponents find it to be a juicy target (this is neither here nor there - almost ALL IG targets are juicy)
I have them in many locations - on my Russ, in HW teams in both HQ and command squads.
They are a mixed bag. Sometimes I hit, most often I don't. I've had some great moments when a shot pierces and takes out a mobile suit or rhino, etc. but most of the time, even with Sharp Shooters, the mighty las cannon fizzles. This won't stop me from taking them, but maybe the 2x shots from the AutoCannon, still with great AP, might be a better choice. The AC can still pierce armor and is a wonderful weapon against infantry and characters. One would never take a Las Cannon against infantry, but an AC, yes.
I also find the opponent eyeballing them with great anticipation, as though they are intent on wiping them out by turn 2. This is tactically a great advantage for us, as it can provide a feint-like effect of luring the opponent while scoring units do their thing. However, more often than not, the opponent takes out the LC by turn 2 and you are left with not much support.
AC's might be a better choice as they hide under the radar and pack a solid punch and might not call attention to themselves until turn 2 or 3 and by then, you are in a better or advantageous position...
What say ye?
Like pretty much all the weapons of the IG, the bassie and the lascannon can be frustratingly inaccurate at times. But there is a solution to this problem: Take 5 of the same gun! That way, you're bound to hit something!
I'm not really a fan of the bassie, because it is such a one-trick-pony. Being lightly armored AND open-topped, you pretty much have to hide it out of LOS for it to stay alive long enough to do its job. But personally, I hate that strategy. Do you know how many times I,ve played against an IG player, who has either sneakily or obviously made sure there was a LOS-blocker in one of his back corners? Come on, that's just stupid.
I kind of got off track there... What I mean to say is, single-shot weapons are not our specialty in the IG. The bloody Space Marines are more accurate, plus every damn gun in their army is twin-linked. But us, well, we miss a lot. It's not as painful when you're shooting multi-shot weapons like heavy bolters or autocannons, but when you're firing a single-shot, super-expensive lascannon, it sucks to miss a lot. The bassie isn't much different. I always figured that, under normal circumstances, ordnance tends to operate at about BS 2.5, depending on how big your target is.
But as much as it sucks, I don't think any IG army can be competitive without a healthy dose of lascannons - maybe a crazy meltagun army could substitute, but normally, we absolutely need lascannons around to pop AV14. Autocannons may be more likely to hit, but they can't touch AV14. Same goes for Terminators. If your opponent is bringing the big, heavy, expensive units, then you had better be bringing the big, heavy expensive guns.
That is why it is so important to max out on our heavy weapons. I always say that our biggest strength lies in our ability to field such a ridiculous quantity of squads, all of which are sporting at least a special and heavy weapon. Support Squads are great too, and I love em - they are my favorite solution to the lascannon problem: If your lascannon keeps missing, try firing three lascannons at once next time.
Tyranids: 2500 pts
Imperial Guard: 1000 pts
Witch Hunters: 1000 pts
Love them both!:wub:
Bassies are wonderfull, with the caveat that you play on a 4' x 6' board. Don't even think about it if you play on a 4' x 4'. Yes they are brittle but will last longer than a Russ if it is hidden properly. To me a Bassie with Indirect Fire, better yet two in opposite corners, can make the enemy play into your strengths and force him out into your fire lanes. They have no where to hide. One 'stick' and a Bassie can easily make his points back.
Lascannons are VERY necessary in my Guard army. Yes the only hit half of the time, but what IG weapon has a better hit ratio per shot? The Lascannon doesn't have a bad BS, IG does! I take one HW squad with three Lascannons, and the at least one Veteran Squad with a Lascannon and Plasma guns. They are really the only good tank killer we have (ML are not good enough IMO, and generally we don't try and get close enough for Meltas). Their AP goes very nicely with Plasma guns so is much better against Terminators and Monstrous Creatures like Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants.
I've played guard for a long time and these are two of my favorite weapons, bar none.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
It seems to me that your problem with the Lascannon is that you are either not taking enough, or not putting them in the right squads.
I would never put them in five man command squads. They belong in either 10 man line squads or if in Anti-Tank Squads, I would take a minimum of 4 squads toting 12 Lascannons.
Many argue that putting them in line squads "wastes" the lasgun shots. I simply look at them as a 10 wound Lascannon. I also like the fact that each of my squads can threaten any vehicle that decides to take a shot at them. My 1500 point list has seven standard squads all armed with a Lascannon and Plasma Gun. It takes a lot of killing to get rid of them.
But if you insist that you don't want wasted lasguns go with Anti-Tank squads in both your command platoon and a heavy weapon platoon. You really need to spam them to be survivable. You also need them backing each other up, i.e. if something takes a shot at one of your Anti-Tanks squads, 3 squads can target that unit.
Last edited by kadun; May 31st, 2007 at 17:27.
I love Bassies but pretty much hate lascannons. In 10000 points (or there abouts) I have a grand total of 2 lascannons (this doesnt include tank mounted ones which tbh are there cos im lazy). I have 2 bassies but generally only use one.
Why only 2 lascannons? they are overpriced. Answer buy more? NO that doesnt make the lascannon any better. They have one use and that is against AV14 that is it they are bested against everything else. (and TBH if you use meltas then lascannons are useless).
put it this way. My one lascannon misses oh il buy 5 then thats a whole ooo 125 oints or another way 10 heavy bolters and a missile launcher! so a ratio of 5 to 11. Ahh but yes against AV14 I lose out.
Now lets think how often you have to shoot at AV14. hmm monoliths, landraiders and the front armour of Russes. Now most decent players can take the side armour of a Russ within a couple of turns, say an autocannon easy. (I personally use my chimeras for a spot of tank hunting oh and multilas sentinels).
So Monoliths or landraiders? Well generally these are a one an army thing so we are looking at basing your whole force on maybe fighting an overpowered vehicle which tbh could be taken out another way (and cheaper). Where im from monoliths are ignored by nearly all. Either the Necron player wont use one cos they think they are too overpowered or the person fighting them will use their small model count to get a quick phasing.
As for landraiders I rarely see them aswell (and I take a lot of missile launchers so I can take them down if needs be) They are again rare and arent going to do a huge amount (alright in some areas they may not be but really they arent that scary, I have faced one or two without lascannons etc and the players then left them at home cos me and my mate were destroying their armies).
Oh they have a big squad inside well you have a bassie high strength template weapon with extra penetration, on such a big model its hard to miss. You could even ignore it, take everything else out and it has to wander round firing off the odd lascannon shot at well hidden troops woot.
Ooo bit of a rant.
Anyway, the bassie can be good, its drawbacks (for instance it being a target) can easily be played as a good point. It can go after tanks and infantry with good results (try using one to snipe out tanks in a mech army and you will be surprised). Their drawback in the main is their low armour but they are rarely seen and for their price are amazing.
Lascannons are 1) expensive (10 points more so than all other heavy weapons that can almost compete even when points are ignored)
2) Not dual use so after that tank is down are useless
3) make squads expensive and DONT go with plasma, plasma is anti heavy infantry or transport, so either autocan missile or heavy bolter never a lascannon.
4) are single shot single shot people.
Something else that bugs me about them aswell the general notion of "guard are rubbish shots" this is a complete fallicy. we have average BS and units that have above average BS. Marines arent the benchmark they are above average. most armies include some BS3 it is the standard so we arent bad shots we are average shots. If we suddenly were "ok" shots by that reckoning marines woudl have to be BS5 so stop whining for the price a guardsman is good.
Now combine this with the lascannon. and we have some very odd logic. Guard are bad shots with lascannons, they are expensive, and they are really bad for anti infantry ooo I know il solve this buy buying more???
Now in every situation there is a weapon that can best the lascannon and has a better alternative fire.
Now if the lascannon suddenly became a sensible price (such as 15 perhaps even 20) points I would consider them more. They just arent flexible. id rather have 2 and a half hunterkillers thatd actually be more effective.
Sorry guys rant over, lascannons are mathematically bad tactically bad and expensive they have no redeeming features im afraid.
Yay math time:
vs Armor Value 14
1 shot * 50% hit rate * 33% glance rate = 16.5% chance of glance or better
2 shot * 50% hit rate * 00% glance rate = 00.0% chance of glance
vs Armor Value 13
1 shot * 50% hit rate * 50% glance rate = 25.0% chance of glance or better
2 shot * 50% hit rate * 17% glance rate = 17.0% chance of glance, cannot pen
vs Armor Value 12
1 shot * 50% hit rate * 67% glance rate = 33.5% chance of glance or better
2 shot * 50% hit rate * 33% glance rate = 33.0% chance of glance or better
vs Armor Value 11
1 shot * 50% hit rate * 83% glance rate = 41.5% chance of glance or better
2 shot * 50% hit rate * 50% glance rate = 50.0% chance of glance or better
vs Armor Value 10
1 shot * 50% hit rate * 100% glance rate = 50.0% chance of glance or better
2 shot * 50% hit rate * 67% glance rate = 67.0% chance of glance or better
As you can see Autocannons are better at *glancing* light armor than Lascannons, while at AV12+ the Lascannon is better. If you just look at penetration rates (instead of glance rates) the Lascannon comes out even better.
In addtion, vs Toughness 4, Armor Save 3+ (Marines, Chaos, Necrons, Tau Battlesuits)
1 shot * 50% hit rate * 83% wound rate * 100% unsaved = 41.5% casualty
2 shot * 50% hit rate * 83% wound rate * 33% unsaved = 27.4% casualty
Also, you choose to ignore the 14AV fronts of Leman Russ battle tanks in your analysis because "most decent players will find the side armor". That argument is shaky because you assume you are more tactically able than your opponent, and you assume your opponent will not work to deny side shots. Something most "decent" players will do.
Now the statistics I've provided are not the whole story, I have not taken cost into account. But I think the 5 point extra cost per Lascannon over the Autocannon in a support squad, or the 10 point extra cost per Lascannon over the Autocannon in a standard squad is balanced out by its benefits.
Not saying there is no place for Autocannons, especially in a Skimmer dominated list. But your claim that Lascannons are statistically worse than Autocannons is just plain false.
Last edited by kadun; May 31st, 2007 at 22:32.
Lascannons cure cancer and Bassies kill the things that cause cancer.
Is that over the top?
That being said, Lascannons are my default weapon. If I'm firing a high Str weapon at something, I'm generally firing it as an AV14 vehicle that is snug against a building. Sometimes I get lucky and am only firing at a Falcon, but in my "all comers" mentality of armybuilding, I have to plan for AV14 Monoliths, Russes, Chaos Predators and the odd Land Raider. Often, I'm also firing at terminators.
As for the Bassie. It is just FUN to be able to walk around the table with a pie plate making my opponenet wince.
It isn't so much the power of the weapon as the fact it doesn't need line of sight. If you are playing non-drop Guard, you are essentially going to be static and need to punish your enemy for hiding from your lascannons.
For Drop Guard, I generally prefer less scattering weapons, but I'm still learning how to play Drop Troops so YMMV.
So are they overrated? Not sure. Bassies are never mandatory, just very useful in certain situations.
Lascannons are a lot closer to mandatory. If you don't have 'em, you actually have to build your army to play a little differently. In a static army they are pretty much twice a good as their S8 and S7 buddies in the armory. In a drop army there are meltas and rear armor shots to help out.
RecklessFable's Journey to Mediocrity (Painting an IG army)
I've been addicted to World of Tanks lately and neglecting my IG... But it is so... much... fun!
@ Kadun actually you have to put the points in otherwise it defeats the object. Yes i know a lascannon is better aginst a high end tank but it is more points and better stats so it will be now if we consider points in there (I do admit in a supprt anti tank squad lascannons are better against the other weapons but not a huge amount)
As i showd 5 lascannons or 10 heavy bolters and a missile launcher?
ok so from your stats
AV 14 yup i agree autocannon cant hurt this this is where a lascannon is handy (As i did in the above post but il ignore the melta data aswell as the multilas data on side armour etc), now
lascannon (your stats divided by points) 1% per point
autocannon 1.11111111% per point
I dont even need to do the rest, as we can see the lascannon isnt good spending on points accept on AV14 (AV13 it can be justified but then again it still cant turn on infantry).
As for against infantry. The lascannon is anti tank it is for killing tanks it is not anti infantry to argue that it shoudl be used anti infantry is not a good idea. lets look again.
same treatment as above.
The point is yes it is good but not for its price. i can get more for my points, say a plasma and autocannon rather than just a lascannon. When its worked out how points effecient it is you can see it isnt actually as good as evryone says it is, which TBH was the original posters premise.
So actually once you have read my post and thought about it your realise that actually my post is staatistically correct not false. I was Argueing the effeciency of the gun.
I can tkae this further aswell. Now for example you are faced with an AV14 russ yes Whilst I hate the lascannon in a fair few lists the support squad or odd line squad contianing them works. But I like my army to be adaptable. Yes oyu can kill all of my AV14 or take out that monolith which i may struggle with (or adapt tactics for) but against a horde army I will win more easily where you will struggle far more, say i bring no tanks with me your lascannons are useless. The enemy can also shoot at you and take those lascannons down. now as they are expensive thats a only a few weapons now what do you do? while i saturate the area with tons of missiles or bassie shots you still struggle to put as many shots into the field.
As for the comment about hiding the side armour. well if you wish to box your tank in for fear then it will be nigh on useless as i can ignore it. It is neutralised. As I said above if you cant kill it make it worthless. Yep I cant kill a monolith but by heck are those crons going to phase out fast.
Please next time you decide to call someone on something put all of the facts into play and read a little more carefully.
hope this helps
@Commisarlestat: Snide little jibes aside, I actually agree with some of what you say. What it comes down to is army building style and local metagame.
In a 1 v 1 my all infantry guard vs your all infantry guard, I have no doubt that you would walk me easily. All my line squads are packing Lascannons/Plasma Guns, my dropping Hardenend Vets and Command Squads are packing Plasma and Melta. While, judging by your comments, your army is filled with Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, Multi-meltas, and other high rate of fire weaponry.
Clearly our ideas of "take all comers" lists differ. I expect Marines and Chaos sporting armor, Termies, Obliterators, Tau Railheads and Crisis/Broadside Suits, Nidzilla, and Mech Eldar.
Factoring in points a Lascannon is still better vs MEQs (Marines, Chaos, Necrons, Crisis Suits), Broadsides, Terminators, 2/3+ Save Carnifex, AV13-14 vehicles than lighter alternatives.
Would hordes give me trouble? Sure, my anti-horde weapons are just massed lasgun fire, but I'm not gearing for them. Would Nidzilla/9 Oblit Iron Warriors give you trouble? I would think so.
I stand by my opposition of you in your statement that the Lascannon is mathematically and statistically inferior to an Autocannon when even with points factored in, it is superior vs my expected opposition.
Last edited by kadun; June 1st, 2007 at 00:15.
Interesting debate here!!:shifty:
@Commissarlestat. You points are well taken, but like Kadun mentioned Autocannons are good at low armour save opponents and Skimmer type Vehicles, but Terrible at 2+ save targets and 13+ Armor. Normally we face MEQ lists, and not hoard lists, so that is why I support Lascannons.
Lascannons are more multi-purpose. Yes the point cost is higher, but at least worth it, IMO.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil