Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I've been on a hiatus from 40k due to work but, I'm getting back into it and since I was still collecting and assembling minis every now and then, I have a significant amount of marine minis waiting to be turned into something. I was going to start back with a 2000pt DIY Marine list BUT with the DA codices, I'm not to happy to see everything going to be changed by the time I have an army painted up since vanillas look to be getting a new codex soon. So I'm looking to some marines who have their own codex that wont be changed anytime soon. On that note, are BT going to radically change soon or am I safe enough to start them and not get pissed when they invalidate half my force composition?
Next, as far as composition goes, I have a basic force together for some large crusader squads and I like the idea of a foot slogger army. 3 large crusader squads, 2 LST, 4 bikes with 2 meltas, and a EC and marshal for LD10 on the RZ checks comes to about 1400. So I have 600 points to play with. I was thinking over a few different lines: For fire support troops I could take a couple Las/Plas squads and or PC/Plas squads. My Marshal could get an infil command squad with 2 meltas. Small 6 man teams of Sword Brethren could infiltrate in with a MM and Plasmagun as well. I'm hesitant to use vehicles since I have so few of them, but the Pred Annihilator would be useful for all the lascannons and the vindicator with machine spirit seems ok. Dreads in a foot slogger list seem alright, with ACs or with Lascannons. Even drop podding in a squad of termies with ACs and tank hunters is something I could play with.
And now for some negative considerations: I consider all the skimmer heavy lists out there and I know meltaguns wont be able to reach all the targets all the time. Vehicles are easy to silence and in small numbers recieve all the AT weapons. And finally troop squads can always be RZ'd after 1 casualty plus have a negative modifier to LD for target priority so it seems the long range shooting on BT troops isn't so good.
I'm trying to think balance here so can any of you help me out with some insight and experience with this core style of BT list. And dont worry about the models...I have a few preds, dreds, and shooty squads already put together, so I'll be fine (I've been on and off playing since 2nd ed.)
I'm pretty sure that the BT won't get an update until 5 ed. That would be after dark eldar (hopefully), orks, chaos, space marines, witch hunters, and daemon hunters. So you're pretty safe there.
I would stay away from Pred Annih. They just aren't worth it. They have to stay still to fire all of their weaponry, which doesn't fit in with BT. I would buy 1-2 dreads with a lascannon, venerable, extra armor. Not that expensive, and they don't suffer from the negative morale modifiers because they are vehicles. (I don't have the BT codex though.) Also, they are very survivable, and good in CC. Terminators are also good.
Turtles For the Turtle God!
Shells For the Shell Throne!
Long range BT squads are fine. Las/Plas squads still work great, even with a -1 modifier, given that you have a marshal. Without him, it's a different story, but with him, they are OK.
I've found that 2 dreads drop podding work really well, if you can get them on the board in time to help (2nd or 3rd turn, max). If they come in after that, their potential at helping take some fire from the footslogging squad is wasted. I've found that footslogging long range dreads work pretty well, too (missile & TLLC). They can put a hurting on tanks, and if they are ignored, then the 15-20 man group gets that much closer with no casualties. I've found them better than annihilators. The vindi is just awesome, if it survives. I've had an opponent literally shoot every anti-tank weapon at the thing in the first turn. Needless to say, it didn't survive with the cannon intact. 2 however, would have...
Termies are a great fire base, and I use a 6-man 2 assault cannon team once in a while, and place them in 4+ cover. It takes tons of shooting to get them out.
Personally, though, I love the 8-man fast attack jump squads for tying up units, mixed with 3 or more meltagun armed bikes for taking down tanks, and the rest being footslogging squads or las/plas squads for longer range firing. There is nothing quite like 70-80 marines on the board to scare an opponent.
"Listen up you primitive screwheads ... see this ... this is my BOOM-stick!" - Ash
"I told you, it's not Pink! It's Light Red!" Donut on his new power-armor.
Great feedback! Sooo based on that input I can see a few options forming, first off, I could go more mechanized and take some Vindis, and some Dreads which would give my opponent some choices in terms of vehicles, give them all some survivability, and give me some long range fires. 2 Vindis with machine spirit and 2 Dreads would be right around 600 pts and give me 2 Lascannon shots, and 2 Pie Plates of Death (tm). For the other approach (more foot sloggers) gives me 3 more 6 man troop squads for 350 pts roughly and some spending points. I'd have 3 Lascannon shots then.
I guess the main reason I want the long range fires is to deal with all the mech tau and mech eldar list i keep seeing posted and hearing about from buddies. What options for shooting work best against them?
Being a mech tau player, I would advise you to take the venerable dread with tl lascannon and extra armor. I love using them and I hate fighting against them. They are an all rounder that is very good in each of it's category (long range, CC, you name it). Plus, they don't have to take target priority checks because they are vehicles. A few of these to advance alongside your massive mass of troops will strike fear in any opponents heart. Or brain.
Turtles For the Turtle God!
Shells For the Shell Throne!
I find that venerable dreads are usually better deployed in cover/forest for the hull-down benefit. Even a reroll on the penetration table isn't going to save you much... hence the extra points to upgrade a dread to venerable is never an option to me, I'd rather go with a couple plain dreads. Just my opinion.
Anima Tactics - try it out!
For vehicle anti-tank you're probably best off with Dreads. They're never terribly effective, but they can move and shoot, even if they're armed with the ML/LC, which means you can deploy them out of LOS - thus avoiding any first turn asplosions - and then waltz out and start firing. The AC set-up is good too; with Rending, it's actually a threat to most vehicles, and it provides nice infantry support for your hordes of Black Templars.
If you want infantry-based anti-tank than small squads with missile launchers or lascannons are the way to go. Don't do las/plas; the extra points for the plasma gun are nearly always wasted (you should never be in range to fire it and if you are you're doing something wrong) as it's primarily an anti-heavy infantry gun, whereas the lascannon is an anti-tank weapon.
I'm not sure if BT even have sergeants, but try to put power fists wherever you can, preferably in every single squad that you intend to put in CC, and bikes with meltaguns are a nice, often overlooked tank hunter squad that can easily flank the enemy. You'll have problems with skimmer armies like mech Eldar or mech Tau, but I play Blood Angels and I always do, so that's more of a problem with assault armies in general than just with BT.
The above poster = Totally a member of the Fluff Masters Clan. Click here for fluff pwnage.
Come, sons of LO! Kneel before Poodle!
Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."
Ze_Poodle, always nice to hear your summary, I've often seen you talking about Blood Angels and I always liked your opinion on the fluff. Anyway, I think you are dead on about the Las/Plas option. So that means for the infantry based shooting, 5 guys with a lascannon will be the squad to take. 6 man squads are good for the plasma cannon, plasma gun combo and thats about it. As far as a continuation of some math hammer vs. tactical options we can see that the venerable with TLLC and extra armor can move and shoot, has armor 12 with reroll on damage table, and comes in at 150 pts. The Pred Annihilator with extra armor can move and shoot with 1 TLLC as well, has armor 13, and comes in at 150 pts when armed with 2 additional sponson Lascannons. In my list they would have the same roll: hang back and snipe vehicles. Survivability wise I call them about equal, with advantage going to the Pred due to it taking 3 weapon destroyed results to remove it as a threat. When moving they have the same shot profile. When stationary, the Predator moves up to be MUCH better than the Dread. For the same costs, I think the Pred is better. When comparing a basic non Ven Dred and no sponsons on the Pred, the Pred is cheaper and has the same hit profile while being more survivable. I think as far as vehicle shooting goes, the Pred is the better way to go if you want a Lascannon, the Dred is better if you want the AC and the assault capability. So far I like the 5 man Lascannon team and the Pred Annihilator most for Lascannon shooting.
I personally would agree that the dreadnought is better than a Predator. It can continually move and fire a Str. 9 and a Str 8 weapon each turn. The Predator has to stay still (and thus in LOS) to surpass that. The dread can hide from, oh lets say... a Railgun for a turn, while the Pred (if its going to fire all its guns) has to sit there and possibly take that S10 bullet.
Pred: 145 points (TLLC, LC sponsons)
Dread: 140 points (TLLC, ML, Extra Armor)
Also, if absolutely necessary, the dread. isn't horrible in CC, even with the ML.
Another thing, I don't recommend venerable. That re-roll isn't that useful. It can be if you're lucky, but there are better ways to spend the points. Instead take another 2 neophytes for a crusader squad! or a powerfist for another! or a Holy orb and something else for your marshal!