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After seeing some of the new Blood Angels info that came out in the most recent White Dwarf, does anyone else see the Black Templars as being outclassed in terms of CC ability now?
IMO, death company, has always been the best in CC with feel no pains...and all the crazy attacks and just the sheer size if the Blood Angels player gets rolling.
3000 pts of DA.
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It would really depend. The Black Templars still have the best potential for close combat when it comes to Troops choices. Crusader Squads are simply better at assaulting than a Tactical Squad - or indeed an Assault Squad - could ever hope to be. With the ability to take Neophtyes and a good chance of either hitting on a 3+ or having an effective S of 5, Blood Angel Troop choices can't hope to compete with the zealous Templars.
In other sections of the FOC though, I believe that Blood Angels have the upper hand. Our Death Company can take on any unit of Black Templars and give it a horrible beating if not destroy it completely. Our Veteran Assault Squads can easily crush a Black Templar Assault Squad through virtue of more attacks (we'd have four on the charge if armed with 2 close combat weapons) and superior weapon upgrades like lightning claws, power weapons, power fists/thunder hammers and more.
I'm also a bit sad to say that Blood Angels may have an advantage in the shooting department as well, but that's for another thread.
Blood Angels are supposed to be the ultimate assault force for the Imperium. They were always the best chapter in CC. Black Templar have other qualities (I don't know much about them though) but something about 20 space marines in a squad? I don't think BT are outclassed, just different.
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I must say, Black Templars look better IMO. Their codex is sweet looking, they are very striking on the table top, and they are very unique. I like them very much. I just might switch to BT at some point.
Turtles For the Turtle God!
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They're both equally good assault armies. They just play differently; Blood Angels are an elite assault army. They have the best Space Marine assault troops, the only jump-pack HQ before Shrike's Wing, and to top that off they have their own patented Ravening Berserkers Frothing At Mouth (tm). They were always the close combat masters, but Black Templars have something else; they have the sheer numbers, since in the fluff they number several thousand, and this is represented accurately in game play. They play horde assault, which is quite different.
Though I'd say that, at least superficially, the new BA codex is leaning heavily towards a list of guys all wearing jump packs. Which I see as kinda hypocritical - they make a bunch of regressive changes regarding unit availability and the Black Rage, say "it's because they're still a Codex Chapter at heart" and then make it possible to play a completely divergent army list made entirely of assault marines and Baal Predators. Eh, silly. But yes, back on topic: They're better now. Though the new changes make Black Templars preferable both in the fluff, the models and the rules. I just can't ever come to terms with them removing Black Rage as a game mechanic, or implementing fixed squad sizes. It really hampers their background.
Black Templars can summon greater might in the basic foot soldier - nothing like six 20-man squads with guns, swords and swordguns - but the Blood Angels elite outshine them in skill. To the point that, in fact, I think the 4th edition BA have too many Elites choices - Death Company, Dreadnoughts, Scouts, VAS, and...do Honour Guard take up a slot? I don't think they do. I hear they can be deployed separate from the character they were bought for, which is all kinds of silly.
They aren't being outclassed. In fact, view this as an improvement on the part of the Black Templars. Before, Blood Angels could contest or even equal them in terms of models on the board. Now, our every basic model is more expensive than before, and we lost Furious Charge anyway. The pure assault marine list you're afraid of will have so few numbers that krak missiles may as well be anti-infantry when deployed against BA. Combat Squads makes efficient lists impossible except at high points levels, Mephiston is a CC beast but still lacks an invulnerable save, and so does every one of their supposedly beastly CC Librarians - no armoury, no Iron Halo. Instead they give an Iron Halo to every Commander free, which is...silly. It's an award for exceptional bravery. So now all ten of them are exceptionally brave? Would that not make them only average? Indeed - why aren't they all also Fearless?
Bah, I digress. BA aren't becoming much better, they're just changing priorities. Black Templars can still contest them and plus they look far more fun to play these days.
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Come, sons of LO! Kneel before Poodle!
Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."
Also I don't think the WD gave the points costs for anything. So everything could be ridiculously expensive. Meph could cost 300pt for all we know... for now...
And Ze Poodle is dead right on all accounts. (In fact, his post stopped me reaching for the red paint )
Black Templars 3000 points
Tau Empire 1750 points
Tyranids 1500 points
Hordes of Chaos *Coming soon*
Mephiston is going to be 277 points. Also, I personally think my templar force can take any of those stoopid rabid dogs... Meh, I guess I'll find out soon enough, eh?