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I've been lurking the boards for a while, trying to get some ideas but I'm still somewhat lost.
A large group of people at my local store are starting 40k and I'm still up in the air as to which army to play. I really like the Inquisition material (read the Eisenhorn books, etc) so I am intrigued. I also think I understand the major differences between the witch hunters and daemon hunters, but I'm afraid I'm missing a lot of important details, especially on play style.
Could I get some opinions here? What are the main differences, play styles, etc? Again, I have yet to play a single game, having only read the rule book through a couple times and glanced at each codex.
Thanks in advance.
Did you intend to keep the theme of of daemonhunter and witchhunter? As in not induct/allie.
I suggest you start playing space marine/imperial guards then allie with Inquistion, for Inqusition army are not beginner army and win not often even for verterns.
Daemonhunter army suffer from 2 weakness that makes it very hard to master.
They have little option for anti tank and each Gk marine cost almost twice as normal marines yet die just as easy. Hence, you can expect you will be outnumbered most of the time. Most player's style for Daemonhunter are aggressive assult, for Grey Knights have superior weapon skill (Ws5) and high strength (str 6) with strombolter that can shoot and assult same turn.
As for witch hunter, I know little but their style are close range fire control. Their strength are at their cost (11pt) yet they have BS4, bolter weapon and power armour, but most of their weapons's range are 24' or less. It require the witchhunter player move close range to the enemy, then concentrade fire with rapid fire bolter/flammer/melta and ensure your enemy have nothing left. Because Sister's toughness, strength and weapon skills are only 3, which are not good in close combat at all. So if your fire burst didnt do enough damage, enemy will assult the sisters and you die instead.
Sister's another advantage are faith points, they can turn the tide of the battle if use carefully and properly, but they are limited.
Hope these info helps
as chow said, Close range fire squads is the best description of sisters of battle's strongest style of play.
with the faith points, you can make it so that any bolter fire within the squad that lands on a roll of 6 to wound, becomes AP1. which is why this is so powerful, they may just be bolters, but 20 bolter shots, bs4 you need 3+ to hit, average of 2 rolls of 6 to wound, with 11 others being normal wounds. plus you can get the cool tanks that have D6 str 8 ap1 shots.... you cant go wrong with that. Put them all in rhinos so you can bounce around the enemy, or create a wall of impassible terrain, and presto, you got urself a rank and file enemy that you mow down.
fun army to play, and very self serving codex.
the DH on the other hand, they need allies most of the time. to play PURE grey knights is redonkulous! its very difficult, and very few strategies hold true for each army. Every army you play, your playstyle needs to adapt and change.
most recomend doing a base list of IG or SM and inducting Grey Knights.
Personally, i rarely win with my Grey knights, and have noticed that against high initiative armies, shooting is all i got, once i get into close combat, i usually loose do to their terrible I4.
it is whatever you choose. i like the challenge, and the way the models look, so i go with DH. if you like sexy women, (as i do, but i just dont like the witch hunter average stat line) then go with Witch hunters. Seraphim are really powerful and sexy also!
goodluck! and whatever you choose, remember, the emporer always needs more willing servents!
Hey, guys! This is the Daemonhunters forum! Why so glum about our favorite army?
Let's start with the "pro"s for either Inquisition army.
* They're uncommon. You'll have a unique army that doesn't play much like anybody else's army.
* Unique and excellent fluff. I guess you can say this is true for every army, but what I mean here is the Inquisition armies don't go fighting to expand empires or defend their race. The Inquisition is about rooting out of hidden evils, Things That Man Was Not Meant to Know. Things like daemons, the Warp, crazy psykers, and so on. It's fun to play on both, conflicting sides of this fluff. Both as the heroic, unacknowledged saviors of humanity and also as the secretive, opressive agents of a corrupt government. You can choose how much to emphasize either viewpoint in your own personal army.
* They're beautiful. All the models for either army, from inquisitors and stormtroopers to the awesome Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle are some of the nicest models Citadel has ever made for any GW game. IMHO, GKTs are the single best looking miniatures ever made for any game, period, and PAGKs aren't too far behind. But either way, once you paint these guys and gals up, you'll have one of the most striking forces imaginable, even if you don't convert a single model.
* Options, options, and more options. No other army allows you to use models and units from so many different sources. All of the Imperial armies can be used in your inquisition army. Likewise, Inquisition units can be used to spice up the other Imperial armies. Many of us play with self-imposed limits (e.g., pure GK, pure Sisters, radical forces without Chamber Militant units), but the flip side is that it is possible to field a force where you can include just about anything and everything from everywhere. You should never get bored with the Inquisition.
Here are what I think are the significant "pro"s favoring the Daemonhunters over the Witch Hunters.
* Grey Knights. Your basic, humble PAGK is the equivalent of most other army's Elites and HQ units. No joke. These guys are just as deadly on the march and shooting as they are in close combat. There is no enemy infantry unit that can't be defeated by GKs. GKTs are only a few points more than their Astartes equivalents, but they are far superior assault units, too.
* Tactical flexibility. Vanilla GKs are so good that you don't need to concern yourself with "upgrading" them. In fact, most of us strongly recommend that you almost never buy any upgrades to them at all! Just get more of them, as many as you can get. Your typical DH army built around a solid core of GKs is one of the most adaptable forces in all of 40K. And for the things that GKs don't do all that well (see "con"s, below), you have stormtroopers and a wealth of allying/inducting options to fill those holes.
The "con"s, as I see them...
* There are a few distinct limitations in the core list that most people have a difficult time adapting to. Primarily, these consist of: lack of transport options (so while the army is extremely mobile, it is not fast), and lack of heavy weaponry. In the core DH codex, the only heavy weapons options can be put on dreadnoughts or land raider tanks; no infantry heavy weapons exist.
* Heavily outnumbered. Because this is an army of elites, you pay a premium price for them. Every model lost is a severe blow. A very important part of playing DH -- especially pure DH -- is conservative management of your resources. VP denial should always be near the top of your playbook. The fact that this is a relatively unaggressive army confuses many players.
* Unforgiving of mistakes. This is not space marines or necrons, nor a horde of tyranids, where losses or mistakes can be covered with numbers or resilience or all-around strength. You make a mistake -- easy to do considering the army's inherent limitations -- and you will pay for it with blood and loss of the game. Some specific but not all-that-uncommon army builds can also prove to be regularly problematic, always causing us trouble. (E.g., mech Tau or Eldar.) DH may have the steepest, most challenging learning curve of any 40K army. Personally, I see the flip side of this as a major "pro": all wins with the DH are well and truly earned. And anybody that tells you that you can't with with the DH is lying. The winner of the 2005 Aussie GT played pure GK. My own winning percentage has been hovering right around 75% over the past 12 months against all-comers, all venues. A highly respected pure GK player on another forum boasts that he lost just 2 games out of a stretch of 274. So it can be done!
Here are what I think are the unique "pro"s of the Witch Hunters.
* Even more unit diversity than the DH. Sisters units demonstrate much more specialization than GK units, so there's a much wider array of infantry and vehicles. This includes seraphim, which may be 40K's ultimate swiss army knife unit.
* Faith. What can be more fun then pulling out special rules that give your troops boosts whenever you want? Generally, this is used to make WH armies absolute horrors in short range firefights, but Faith has many more applications than that.
Here are the "con"s of the Witch Hunters, IMHO.
* Few quality tactical options. While it is possible to use Faith to boost your girls in a variety of ways, trying to turn this force into one geared for assaults is unwise. This army really only works as a focused, short-range firepower army. It is undeniably effective at this, however -- indeed, easily the strongest army at this tactic -- but the flipside is that it's just not so hot at laying on the smackdown in assault despite the presence of units that make it look like this ought to be possible (e.g., sisters repentia, celestians). So if getting into assault is a tactic you enjoy utilizing, the WH may not be well-suited to your tastes.
* Expense. Practically the entire range is metal. While this is also true of the DH, the limited numbers of models you can actually field in a DH army means that you won't be spending any more than anybody else on their armies, probably even less! But Sisters are only fractionally more expensive than ISTs or Tau Fire Warriors, and it's not uncommon to need many models to field a quality force. This can cost you a considerable amount of $$. And if you reduce the numbers of models you need by going mechanized, you spend a lot on tanks. There's almost no way to avoid the cost.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
I agree with most of the above posters, and let me see if I can't outline some Pros & Cons for each.
- Grey Knight models are fantastic
- The GK are the best 'all-around' soldier
- Nemesis Force Weapons rock
- Inquisitors aren't as cool as in the books
- GK's point costs are high so you're always outnumbered
- Some-what confusing rules for Allies, Inducted Guard, etc.
- Stormtroopers don't fill all the gaps needed to round out the force
- More limited model and unit choices than Witch Hunters
- Tough to master
- Very limited Anti-Tank options
- Very limited tank options
- Most models are the slightly more expensive metal ones
- No real difference in models / scupts between troops, fast attack and purgation heavy squads
- Pure Grey Knights is a large challenge, but fun if you don't mind losing many of your games
- More unit choices than the DH
- Viable pure Sisters of Battle forces are possible
- Acts of Faith
- More tank options
- Has viable short / mid-range anti-tank
- The Exorcist tank rocks
- Cheap points costs for Power Armor, Bolter and BS-4 lets you field a ton of Sisters
- Seraphim are cool! Arcos are cool! Penitent Engines are cool!
- Still limited in ranged anti-tank (good within 12" to 24")
- The 'freak show' (some cool concepts, but some odd rules and 'one trick ponies')
- Most models are slightly more expensive metal one
- Expensive models and lots of them...the investment adds up!
- Low strength and toughness makes CC a bad idea
I collect and play both, and I personally like both of them over 'regular' space marines. The Grey Knights are a little more limited than the Sisters of Battle, and both can utilize the Inquisitors (although retinues and gear vary a bit), can field IG Stormtroopers (with less options than normal guard), and can induct some guard units (platoon, conscripts, Armored Fist Squads, Sentinel Squads, a Leman Russ, etc.)
Personally my Witch Hunter's collection is larger than my Grey Knights, but I also started with the Sisters of Battle first.
Basically if you're not highly concerned with being competitive / winning, pick which-ever army you like best. If you're a good tactician and learn quickly you can do well. I believe that with the Witch Hunters provides more options which makes them more tactically adaptable to more foes, and besides two Exorcist tanks along side a Leman Russ...what more could you ask for? :-)
Thank you everyone for your input. It is a lot of good info for me to digest.
As far as my experience as a player, I've bee playing mini wargames for a long time, and can count myself as an above-average player and tactician. Challenges also just make me want to play something even more (like pure inquisition).
When I started looking at GK stats, they looked ridiculously powerful (elite-like as mentioned in your replies), so I'm a little disappointed in the fact that they don't necessarily last any longer than a SM troop counterpart.
So, as far as I have gathered, maybe i should go with the Witch Hunters Codex, and throw in some GKPA and GKT in "by the authority of the immortal emperor of mankind..."
thank all for the responses, and i'll keep reading in case anyone else has opinions.
Why do you have to take one or the other? I've been playing both and they really complement the other, covering up the weaknesses. With GK's covering SoB you get tougher units that can take hits much easier and can pacify most HtH treats with ease. With SoB's covering GK's you get many more viable bodies on the field which cover up the lack of manpower, yet still retaining some awesome capabilities that beatdown many of the other armies' normal troop units.
As mentioned the only real problems are the lack of anti-mech in some places and even an excess in others. True, we don't have many good, long-range, tank-hunting troops but many players seem to forget that both armies have a great selection of Heavy Support units and combining both you could have the possibilities of fearlsome Landraiders or the hellish Exocists. When it comes to both, you're only problem is your lack of heavy support slots
I suggest you start with WH (or just sisters) as they're easier in my opinion to get use to and then work your way through to the other side of the Inquisition, to DH (and those lovable Grey Knights) instead of just choosing one over the other.
I'd say go DH, but just about everything sept a deathwing heavy DA army is gunna outnumber you (or an army with expensive leaders, and just about any guy who can use the armoury) so yeah...
Create flames for a galaxy and it will be warm. Put a galaxy in flames and it will be warm for the rest of it's existence.
that's a very good point, and i'll probably be mixing the two armies to come up with my complete force. I guess the main question is still which codex to start with, as in which HQ and 2 troop choices I Have to have...
Is it better to have a cannoness +sisters assisted by GKPA and GKTs, or a GM and GKPAs assisted by some seraphin? If i go with DH, i'm fairly certain that I cannot use the exorcist as an ally, is that correct?
thanks for the continuing advice
Correct, as per the ally rules found in the WH codex (and the DH codex for that matter), you can't use Heavy Support choices for allies. Which brings up an interesting point, actually. You can ally every other unit in each codex but the heavy support, so I'd take a look at those and decide which you like better. The real difference, as I recall, is that DH get GK Dreadnoughts, and WH get Exorcists. One other thing to compare are Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and Sisters squads. The sisters are only one point more, and serve a similar purpose (and have similar choices, I think... they may not get plasma guns), but have a better save and better standard guns. So, if you're planning on using IST's in a DH force, you may want to fill that role with Sisters instead (though, WH also have access to IST's, of course).
Meh, hopefully that rambling was somewhat helpful =)
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