Welcome to Librarium Online!
I have generally had very bad experiences with my sisters army but they are fun to play. This is mainly to do with my tactics as I try to stand and shoot and wait for the enemy to come to me.
My usual list is 2 sisters squads, a cannoness, 2 exorsists, a repentia squad and some serephim. There is also usually some space left for something extra like a celestian squad.
The cannoness is in my opinion useless. I kit her out and she dies, I leave her nekkid and she usually survives until she gets close with her plasma pistol, either way I get the faith when she dies so I give her a plasma pistol only.
The repentia are also iffy cause they have no way of getting there fast. Maybe in this new list below they will have a better chance to get there. Maybe a minimum size might b added.
The sisters squads are honestly only in for the compulsory troop selection. Yes they are faithfull but their lack of special weapons, specifically weapons that can take out vehicles and high toughness creatures is shall we say very limmited to non existant and at close to 200 points each, expensive.
The seraphim... toughness of 3, strength of 3... and they are wanting to get into CC so that they can jump out after the opponents assault phase? Yea if they survive that long. Yes, target selection is extremely important and you need to take out most of the enemy models to be effective. The hit and run rule is very nice but IMO not worth the cost. I still like these units althought they are fragile. A potential use in the list below is to serve as a sacrificial unit, tempt something closer.
The exorsists, nice and effective, but the only real anti-tank/high toughness options tht we have. So I field 2 and am considering a 3rd except for the thought I had below with the Pentinant Engines.
I usually have about 40 troops and 2 vehicles in the list above and have never beaten any marine (space marine and chaos) or eldar army. Where I play we have a sick amount of Chaos players as well as a Iron Warrior player who insists it is not a brain-dead army. You have no idea how much I would like to beat this tosser with a sisters army!
So I was thinking about the list below and before spending my hard earned money on models that I may later find pointless I thought I would ask around. On paper the list looks good, I still have close to 40 models but in stead of 4 squads and an IC I now have 6 squads and an IC as well as a similar number of faith points.
My New List, is there or about 1500 leaving space for a few options:
Inquisitor with ability to select deployment zone. OR a nekkid cannoness.
Priest to join the celestians.
2 x 5 man squads of Inquisitional Storm Troopers with 2 plasma-guns each. Yay, plasma in a sisters army.
2 x Exorsists
1 x squad of 3 pentinent engines (I have only played with one of these once and it was not a good experience but maybe if there were more..)
2 x 6 man Dominion squads with flamers in an Immolater with smoke, armour and flamers (the TL blessed Heavy bolter shots are too few to be wirth while but one could add a pintle mounted Storm Bolter as well but that is now getting expencive.)
1 x 6 man squad of Arco Flagelents (These I have never even seen being played. They look fairly random but very nasty)
1 x celestian squad
Now this does give me only 4 faith points and I am used to around 6 to start with and it does break from my usual tactics of stand and shoot which do not work with sisters. Also up to now I have never added any power weapons to my squads as they were not supposed to get into CC but now that is the idea.
The idea would be to force my opponent to either shoot at the Exorsists or the Pentinent Engines or the Immolators or the Arco Flagelents. A difficult choice but if I had to choose, I first go for the immolators, then the Arco Flagelents while trying to lead the Pentinent Engines on a walkabout. (maybe a rules question but: Does the PE need to have line of sight to be forced to go towards the nearest enemy unit? I am thinking that this would be a requirement.) The exorsists are effective but stay in cover and you will at least get a cover save, unlike all the power weapons that the other lot have.
Escalation will hurt this army but it is fast enought that comming in on the 3rd turn is managable. What I would like to know is if any of you have played a similar list and what your experience was. Also how do you manage the escalation problem? Do you deploy and wait for the support to arrive or storm in screaming? Do you try to minimise what you have to deploy in escalation or do you not care?
One last thought I had was selecting your deployment area could be very advantagious but if the tables are pre-set and very even, like they are in most of our games, is it still worth it? (this could be very situational)
As a last note, the eventual play is to have 1 army list, a take on anyone list. Any input would be appreciated.
My first recommendation is to read St. John's and Heiromoyo's tacticas. Both are very good.
I think you're discovering some misconceptions with SoB's. namely... They are NOT marines. you can't stand still and shoot. You're not as tough as marines, so you can't stand and slug it out like they can. You don't have long range squad options like Marines do. You're very much like Stormtroopers in Power Armor. with a few exceptions....
Faith. ever want to see a whole unit shrug off a pieplate blast that would level marines, or even Terminators? Sisters can. Ever want to see girls knock marines over like they're toy dollies? Sisters can.
It's hard for me not to laud the basic lowly, Sister of Battle. Points for points, she's a best buy for infantry.
If you want to capitalize on the Short range overwhelming firepower that a basic SoB squad can pump out... rhinos. They should be mounted in Rhinos. They're a great option for getting your girls to where they need to be to make the most of their Bolters, Heavy Flamers, and Meltaguns. The mobility will make your army more of a threat, because it can shift to take advantage of the enemies weak points.
Seraphim are another unit that can shine like the stars. Sure, they're not as tough as Assault marines. so be careful where you move them. keep them out of line of Sight, and when in sight, use some faith to give them invulnerable saves. Same idea with a jumpy cannoness.
In my armies, Seraphim w/inferno pistols and the Jumpy cannoness (jump pack, cloak, Bolt Pistol, and Blessed Weapon) are two most feared units. Because they move, and can hold their own in CC. Don't underestimate the power of an Inv. save in CC. Make sure to upgrade to a Veteran Superior in the Seraphim squad, and give her an Eviscerator, for added punch. Units that can jump 12", shoot, charge, and disengage by moving 3d6" away are nothing to shrug at.
Repentia... I don't even think of using them. they get chewed up, and are overpriced.
Arco-Flagellents are nice, but expensive. Pen. Engines are nice, but again, expensive and hard to use. I feel that if you're going to use Arco's and PE's go all out for them. use a LOT of both. it'll be a fun, and chaotic game to say the least.
look in the armylist forums, and see what lists people have listed. also look around on the boards, for tactics with those units.
Its difficult to say why you're finding your set up ineffective. We would need a point list because different squads have differing degrees of success depending the size of the battle (1500 pts?). How is your Canoness kitted out? What special weapons are you taking in your squads? It sounds like you use mainly sloggers in your current list?
I run a typical jump pack, book, cloak with an IP/Evis set up. While she doesn't live every battle, she is probably the most resilient HQ I have ever seen. I find if she doesn't attach to a squad, her ability to take faith acts based on leadership alone makes her nigh invulnerable. All it takes is for her to jump past a lone IC and turn and shoot with her IP, or shoot a tank of about any type to earn her points back. She isn't a CC monster but having a 2++ save with an evis (that you can give an additional +2 S to insta-kill) can ruin any IC's day. However she needs faith to work or she is like a ferrari with an empty gas tank.
The regular SoB squads aren't great at taking out tanks however they do have short range AT with melta guns. You either need bodies if you are slogging or rhinos to get them into position. The weakness of any sister army is in long range shooting. We have only the exorcist which is S8. Thats why everyone always brings two.
You don't mention the seraphim size nor their kit out. You charge with seras for three reasons and almost all of those reasons include shooting first. 1. To finish off a squad you just shot, 2. To counter-charge/aid another unit in CC 3. To hide between turns in CC setting up a hit and run for the following turn. With access to a VSS and her ability to be a SI, you have a very good chance getting off SotM even with 8 in the squad. I get the feeling that you run a slogging army which again gives little cover for units like seraphim.
You mention only having 6 faith in you army (1500 pts?) I would be shooting for 8 at that level. My 1850 army has 10. Faith is the fuel that makes the sisters viable. It allows a lone canoness to tie up an expensive deadly hq squad for the whole game while your seraphim jump around picking off other units.
Iron warriors are a very over powered army (lets see what happens in Sep and the new chaos dex comes out). It sounds like your list is a foot slogger one with only two vehicles. Rhinos are a good delivery system. If WH's get access to the new marine set up, we will save 8 pts on each rhino.
I don't have trouble against marines nor a lot of chaos armies(IW's are just nasty). I do have great trouble against mech tau and mech eldar because I lack the ability to wield a lot of shots to bring down A12 skimmers. Destroyer crons are also tough.=I= will need a retinue and then they become expensive with little pluses. You can make them a firebase which is probably a little weaker than an HB retro squad or can make them really expensive to be a CC squad. And even then, he won't be nearly as good as a Canoness. If you go minimum to only get a deployment zone option, then you are wasting points. Set up is an art and you have a strat rating of 3. Do you really need that ability to pick a zone? :shifty:My New List, is there or about 1500 leaving space for a few options:
Inquisitor with ability to select deployment zone. OR a nekkid cannoness.Im not a fan of a 40ish point model that doesn't do a whole lot. But if you take the sideshow units, you have to have him. What is the size of the Cel unit? Do they have transport?Priest to join the celestians.Min size to just get troop slots filled? If so, that makes sense. But if you look at the difference, for 1 point more a sob gets +1 armor save, access to unmodified leadership and faith acts. I'll take a MG out of a rhino over plas any day. My son self-cooks his squads all the time. :yes:2 x 5 man squads of Inquisitional Storm Troopers with 2 plasma-guns each. Yay, plasma in a sisters army.You can do a search of my arguements against why a PE is a weak unit. They are open topped (read vulnerable to blast) and the rage ability means they can be kited away from where they want to go. Your IW opponent will love you for bringing three of them.2 x Exorsists
1 x squad of 3 pentinent engines (I have only played with one of these once and it was not a good experience but maybe if there were more..)Immos can work but you have too few vehicles which means your opponent will be targeting them and your PE's. They really need rhinos for screening. I find they normally dont last past the turn after you pop smoke.2 x 6 man Dominion squads with flamers in an Immolater with smoke, armour and flamers (the TL blessed Heavy bolter shots are too few to be wirth while but one could add a pintle mounted Storm Bolter as well but that is now getting expencive.)Very cool looking unit. Its a shame they cant be transported and if you want the fleet-like ability you have to activate them. Once activated, they become scared of 6's (for movement and CC attacks). You really need a rhino to screen for them or they are vulnerable to massed fire.1 x 6 man squad of Arco Flagelents (These I have never even seen being played. They look fairly random but very nasty)
I would suggest you proxy out your force in several battles and see how they work out. See what your army is missing and what you need to add. That will save you a lot of money. I haven't been able to make slogging sisters work very well. Any opponent that has mobility or better long range shooting will make life tough. I have learned that if you take vehicles with sisters, you need to take a lot to ensure survivability and to get effective screening.
Thanks for the props, farmpunk.
grnaty, my Tactica focuses mainly on the mechanized aspect of the army. If you're inclined to go that way, then I have some very important reading for you. If not, then I still suggest you take a look at the Faith and Delivery & Sustainability sections.
It seems that you just haven't found your niche yet with the army. Learning how and when to use Faith is generally what turns this army from a so-so army to a hard and competitive list.
Good luck, we'll be happy to answer any specific questions you have!
Maybe if you posted a full list, we could help with some tactics, and maybe with some changes to units.
Well, it's your army you should do what's fun for you! You did express interest in winning more though, so here's my 2 cents.
Games are won by a solid core of reliable troops. Taking the absolute minimum necessary cheapo troops and then loading up on ultra high priced goodies isn't gonna do it. I'm no GT vet, but the only army I have seen consistently perform with that kind of setup is Eldar, and only because their heavy support choices are near on unkillable. (although few things in 40K are sweeter than seeing a 6 come up on the exorcist roll when you have a wraithlord in your sights.)
How're 5 storm troopers going to sit on a loot counter out in a 6+ field of grass on the last turn or two and survive any half hearted attempt to run them off? (Especially since 2 of the 5 are carrying Gets Hot! weapons... they may nearly knock themselves below scoring status without enemy fire!) Without details, glancing over the summary you posted it looks like well over 40% of your army will be invested in non-scoring units.
Dominions are fun and I do love immolators. The problem with those squads is the whole point of taking flamers is to use divine guidance with them. Setting yourself up to be attempting to get 6 or less on 2d6 isn't a favorable situation.
If you do some back browsing through the army list forum up above you can check out a wide range of armies from stuff composed for the sole purpose of winning tourney games to "fun and fluffy but I don't exactly enjoy losing" to themed lists that don't have a prayer against most enemies but are down right awesome fun!
I am new to the whole sisters army but now have nine fights under my belt. (all easy wins). The strength of a sister shouldn't be disputed.
Now my usual list is nuns in rhinos with 2 exorcists and a seraphim squad. These are some findings i have seen.
1) Seraphim aren't really a hth unit, they are a shooting unit that can live in hth long enough to jump out and keep shooting.
2) Flamers are gold. With faith a unit of sisters with a flamer and heavy flamer will melt faces. (average coverage is 4-5 guys) Against marines they will do heavy damage. Against everyone else they erase the squad. (perfect for those squads huddled closely to stay in cover.)
3) Cannoness aren't super fighters like other races have. The greatest thing they do is give you extra faith.
4) Rhinos keep the sister squads protected and deliver them to short range fire range. Use other rhinos to block line of sight and pop smoke. Don't forget to use the fire points on the rhinos.
5) You should almost always double tap with your sisters. They are much better shooters then hth fighters.
6) Treat sister squads as ladies. They are not marines. They are fragile and must be treated properly.
7) Faith is more important them models on the table. (especially against marines)
I suggest you try a list with rhinos and give your squad some flamers. Use some of my suggestions (most of them are derived from the sagely advice from this forum and those tacticas). See if that works for you.
A cannoness isn't an Elite HQ choice like those Chaos lords and Necron Lords so I generally keep her equipped quite minimally, trying to keep around the 90-110pts range, note that Cloask of St Aspira, Blessed Weapons or Evicerators arn't a must. This way she will have an impact on the battle with some survivability but if she dies the lose isn't so great. Typical roles include:
HQ killer: Cloak of St. Aspira, Evicerator and Jump Pack (Recommended by Cher so I've never used this combination
General Support: Blessed weapon and Brazier of holy fire (An additional Linaties of Faith make normally hard acts of faith possible, for example Divine Guidance in 15 man squads)
Morale Support: Book of St. Lucius, Purity Seals, Power weapon and Brazier of Holy Fire (I use this probably the most, sometimes with a Blessed weapon over the power weapon and Brazier)
Tank Hunter: Evicerator and/or Inferno Pistol, Jump Pack
I would personally recommend some of these set-ups or spin offs from them. Some of them involve her acting on her own or being with a squad. I personally prefer set-ups that help improve squad performances during battle, this way she also gains the protection of the squad so stuff like Cloak of St. Aspira, Invulnurable acts of faith or Mantles of Orphellia arn't needed.
Their use is quite unique and do require the support of the army in order for them to perform well. In my opinion they arn't an amazing mix with your army, mainly because you've gone shooty with little in fast or combat units to join the repentia. You also pay a large lump of points to send a lone unit up to face gun fire. To make them more useful I think a few penitant engines, Arco Flaggelants and Transport mounted squads as well as the existing Seraphim would work well, this will give your opponent more to think about and split his fire power. In a shooting army like yours the best role I can think for them would be a counter assault units but then again you're paying a lot of points for such a non-vital unit.
Fluff wise I won't argue much in this region, if they're included for this reason then I guess you can ignor what I've mentioned above.
Huh, Sister squads ranging to 200pts. To be honest that should only happen if you've given them a Rhino Transport since they are very cheap, otherwise you're looking at around 150-160ish for a relatively effective unit or around 120-130pts for the most basic set-up, but that would just come to a waste so it's better to just make them useful by adding some extras. Sister squads are one of the best troops choices for cost in the game so why not make them useful. Unlike marines they arn't built to take on any foe and have a decent chance of winning, their strength lies in shooting, more so in the rapid fire region.
Divine Guidance and Flamer templates are excellent at knocking down all types of troop choices, this coupled with a Rhino gives you a high chance of striking first with rapid fire as well. Foot moving flamers are a not so bad choice better off when operating with like three squads. Meltaguns are good a offering protection against tanks but you would waste a lot of bolter fire should you choose to shoot at a vehicle, thus Dominions or Small storm trooper squad in transports are better quited for the task as they're cheaper with less bolter wastage. The Storm Bolter is decent at light mobile harrasement when used in threes (Sister superior) and only when on foot as well so you make use of the range otherwise I think it's a choice best left alone.
Lastly the wargear the Veteran Superior has is useful in backing up the squad, stuff like Book of St. Lucius will keep them at the front lines through thick and thin, a Brazier of Holy Fire adds another template to the flamer haven and an Evicerator offers you all the punch you need to deal with those pesky vehicles or toughness 4 units that stray too close for liking.
For you point on high toughness creatures and vehicles non-existant is very much exaggerated, you're probably just not looking hard enough. Melta weaponry offers all the punch that is needed in this region and can be bought in packs of three for basic squads or 5 in Dominion units, not to mention massed amounts of rapid firing bolters can be just as deadly for high toughness creatures, especially with stuff like Divine Guidance. And in combat there's always the Evicerator back up coupled with the strength boosting acts of faith. The codex has plenty of weapons that can take on any other army, maybe not purchased as obviously as the Space Marine codex but I can garentee the options are there.
Strength 3 and Toughness 3 yes, but they arn't built for close combat. The potential is there but they are much better at shooting, the combat is there as the final blow and/or to get safely away from enemy shooting during their turn. Like sister squads they can be equipped with up to 3 flamer template weapons which makes them really good at knocking out infantry, also the veteran superior enables the squad to roll extra dice for faith tests. Large squads are goos against infantry while small squads given inferno pistols are excellent against vehicles. And if crap hits the pan you can equip the Veteran Superior to deal with it in combat with a power weapon (against infantry) or an Evicerator (against vehicles or high toughness creatures). Hit and run is very much worth it to gain the advantage to shoot these weapon again the following turn while avoiding death via shooting.
Their use lies in using terrain to get to their targets and pounce on them before they can be pounced on themselves, their jump pack movement serves the battlerole well, while they have power armour it's generally not the greatest of ideas to leave them in plain sight, in such cases it's best to just not deal damage that turn and wait or safely get into posisiton for a much better oppitunity or head towards accomplishing the mission objectives.
In a typical pure sisters list you'll see that two exorcists are pretty standard any more can be considered too much and starts to clump up space with the vehicles bulky nature. The jist of their use is pretty much self explanitory with viewing the codex, even with 13 armour it's always a better idea to keep them hidden until it's time for them to shoot.
Your existing army is too focused on the repentia I reakon with little focus on the sisters themselves. Sisters are the major units in the army and deal the majority of the damage with their flamers/meltaguns and bolters. The army also has little mobility, relying purely on poorly equipped Seraphim to deal with all your fast moving requirements. I recommend you drop the Repentia, unless you really want to keep them, and at least give one of your sister squads flamers, Book of St. Lucius and a Rhino with Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers. With the points left over you can boost your Cannoness with decent equipment and give your Seraphim some harder hitting weapons. You'll probably find the mobility and the mix of special weapons and acts of faith serve you better than the bare minimal squad set-ups.
I would recommend giving the Cannoness the equipment suggested above or some sort of spin off so she can at least support the army other than dying and giving more faith points.
I would watch out for the plama weilding storm troopers, as nice as the weapons sound such a small squad is easily out manouvered and wiped out with minimal firepower. Their leadership isn't amazing either, so for this reason large squads or transport options are prefered to keep them safe so they stand a chance of firing. The leadership problem can easily be fixed by keeping a cannoness with a book of St. Lucius nearby.
Last point I would probably say is that small dominion squads will struggle to get off Divine Guidance, also 4 templates are totally unneeded as by the third template is laid you'll probably have already killed any models that are within range, two flamers are normally enough for the task and a back up third template on the superior if it's bugging you that much, as such I would recommend these become meltagun weilding Dominions, being able to knock out vehicles and high toughness creatures and moving one squad down a notch to basic sisters. In 1500pts you ideally want 3 units dedicated to anti-tank so you have enough coverage over the battle.