Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I was thinking this morning, after having been torn apart by Harlequins last night.
I remembered The shield of faith, which I might have been able to use, had I shifted my troops a bit differently. I thought I should share my quandry.
Shield of faith can nullify the pesky Veil on a 5+ for everyone. now mind you, it's a 1/3 chance, and you roll once per power, but it could let you open a can of whoop on the Harlies. All it would take is to have a SoB squad in LoS, since Veil is a LoS power. Right?
Last edited by farmpunk; July 6th, 2007 at 21:22.
Not gonna get too far with that one. Shield of Faith specifically says 'Targeted' not 'Affected' The target of veil is the harlequin troupe, not the sisters. Best thing I've found to do with them is make sure none of their available charge targets has another squad within consolidation range and try to make sure you lose the combat in your enemy's turn.
There was a giant discussion on this that I started over on Warseer. (which cannot be linked ~ Karmoon)
Basically it boils down to two opposing arguments:
Pro SoF: Veil of Tears specifically mentions that it affects the enemy units, so SoF works. Each unit would have to test upon shooting though, as it is a constant power.
Pro VoT: It doesn't have an Area of Effect for the SoF to work on, so no go.
Neither side has an iron-clad lock on the ruling, at least until a FAQ comes out for Eldar.
Last edited by Karmoon; July 8th, 2007 at 12:22.
Hmm. I was reading it a bit more as them being in the Area of Effect. Since anyone in view would be in the area of Effect. I'll have to look at the rules for VoT. I'm probably reading too generous on psychic effects.
What got me thinking about it twas the fact that Null Rods do not allow Psychic powers to work at all on the unit wielding the Rod... The Inq. is Affected by the veil, and the Null Rod nullifies the Effect of the Psychic power. He and his unit can see through the psychic veil of tears
Since a SoB unit would be affected by the power, That would mean they'd be in the area of the Effect, and therefore would get the 5+ nullification vs. the Psychic power.
maybe I need to ask this on the rules page.
Viel of Tears is a passive ability that does not target anything, it's practically something like the Grey Knights Aura which causes a Night Fighting like ruling but the reason for this is a psychic power. Sheild of Faith specifically says that any psychic powers that 'target' a Sister of Battle unit can roll to prevent the effects. VoT in the end does not target anything, it's in its own way like conceal as it effects the Sisters in that their bullets get warded, but it would be silly to cancel it out with sheild of faith.
How I see it Sheild of Faith was designed with the intention of giving sisters protection against offensive psychic powers but not passive ones that buffs enemy units. Since Veil of tears essentially does not target a Sister unit I would say Sheild of Faith has no effect here. In my opinion to do so otherwise its pretty much just bending the rules by twisting the rule wording (not specifically just Viel of Tears), but thats just my opinion.
If you want to get technical then I can easily somehow have every psychic power 'effect' sisters in some way or the other to bend the rules to gain a 5+ roll against it. There's wargear that is designed to negate general psychic powers already.
To be honest though VoT shouldn't hinder a Witch Hunter army too much anyway due to their strength in the rapid fire region. A definate answer can be gained by emailing Gamesworkshop so if it's bothering you that much it's worth a shot, otherwise as Gw recommends if the ruling is too tough for a definate answer then just roll a dice to determine the result.
The Shield of faith rule describes effects upon the SQUAD.
The requirements for shield are, "Psychic Powers targeted against any unit or character with the Adepta Sorritas rule, or including them in its area of effect....". WH p. 18.
Note the word "OR".
"OR" means that "targeting" per se is not a requirement.
They need only be affected by the psychic power either through targeting or area of effect.
The requirements in the "Shield of Faith" is written with deliberately broad language to accommodate growth of the game. (Unlike the unfortunate GK Aegis Rule, which depends upon "minor" being defined_
When the Adepta Sorritas make the decision to target the Harlequins, the Adepta Sorritas become affected by the psychic power (should they fail the dice test required by th Veil). The area of effect is exactly the Adepta Sorritas Squad.
(If a Psychic used a power to raise his strength, then HE is the area of effect.)
The Veil of Tears is not an INvulnerable save nor bubble with a small radius in front of the Harlequins. (If the Veil were just that, then I'd agree. But the Eldar got a little greedy, didn't they?)The Veil's influence definitely includes the Adepta Sorritas in its area of affect.
That is undeniable.
Now if you're still on the fence at this point, (I'm not), look a bit further into the mechanics:
"The Shadowseer uses her powers to confuse and terrify her foe..." Eldar, p.49
Is this not targeting? Is this not "including in area of effect?"
Mind you, it need only be one to qualify.
I really don't see this argument as much of a contest.
If the dispute between Book of St Lucius vs Culexus/Pariah were a 10 in the scale difficulty to settling two interpretations, I'd call this one a 5.
EDIT- clarified grammar
Sisters Repentia: Wow what beautiful models! Wow what terrible rules! -stjohn70
The "or" here does not in my opinion refer to being targeted or area of effect it is simply used to define the who can use the the sheild of faith. The very last part of the sentence quoted is clarifying that a unit that does not have the Adepta Sorotias rule but includes a character or a squad which has been hit in the area of effect can still use the sheild of faith.
For example a storm trooper squad is hit by Eldritch Storm which is lead by a Cannoness, because the Psychic power has an Area of Effect (Templates) and targets the squad you may use sheild of faith HOWEVER, if the Farseer had chosen to use mindwar, which targets a single model, on the Storm Trooper Sergeant then Sheild of Faith would not work.
The last part of the sentence you mentioned is used in this context. The 'or' in the last part of the sentence is not used to exempt "Psychic powers targeted" but as a choice between "any unit or character with the Adepta Sorotitas rule, or including them", these are the three situations in which you may use sheild of faith.
I'll side with Red on this one. "The shadowseer uses her powers to confuse and terrify her foe." Thats an active power in my book. Its an always on aura power which covers the whole board and is used by a psyker (even though no psychic test need be taken) so shield of faith works here as well.
The questions that need to be asked are...
1. Is it a psyker power? Yes just like a warlock's powers are psychic.
2. Does it affect the sister model? Yes. It reaches out to confuse and terrify. Translation, it makes the model use night fight.
Psyker powers that don't have an effect on SoB's (like some of the nid powers) don't invoke shield of faith.
However, while it takes a little skill to judge distances, harlies are not that hard to counter once you realize they have a 13-18" effective range. Having two fleet armies (DE and Eldar) I can tell you I get very nervous if I need a 5 or a 6 on a fleet roll to get my unit into an assault. I rarely get a 5 or a 6 when I need it. I try to be within 14-15 inches using FoF chargers. A rhino has a 14" effective range (12 + 2 deploy) with another 8" for templates(12" for bolter). Thats a solid advantage for the sisters even without SoF.
However, I would like to point out that the sentence you quoted does not say how, nor does it say it 'reaches' out to tamper with the sisters mind directly, it's a very generic sentence which is why I reakon it's just fluff. For all we know she could just be using her powers to create a mirage of fearsome visions surrounding the squad or somehow create a holofield effect on top of their holo-suits which would not 'target' the sisters themselves.
This would bring me back to the original point of the wording not specifically and clearly saying that Viel of tears targetting enemy units for it to take effect which in my opinion does not merit Sheild of faith working due to no clarity of ruling.
Don't get me wrong or anything, I am a Witch Hunter player and would abuse Sheild of faith did rules clearly stated it but alas it doesn't, and as long as it doesn't I wouldn't say do anything otherwise, thats how we play at our club, others may be different but arn't we all.
Red pointed out that the WH dex says it works when it is targeted against any char or unit or when it includes them in its AOE. It is clear that the veil is an AOE that encompasses the entire board because anything that can legally target them is under the effect, be it 2" to 60". While the harlies are not actively targeting a unit, they are affecting any unit which shoots at them. You could split hairs and say that the eldar dex doesn't label the power as an AOE but if it isn't an AOE that activates when a player shoots at the harlies, then what would it be called under the rule set? The difference between the veil and say a DE night shield is the eldar Dex lables the veil a psyker power. If the seer had some sort of a stealth field like the Tau, then SoF wouldn't work.This would bring me back to the original point of the wording not specifically and clearly saying that Viel of tears targetting enemy units for it to take effect which in my opinion does not merit Sheild of faith working due to no clarity of ruling.
Other than a FAQ ruling (which is yet to materialize), I would have to say its clearly stated that if an AOE affects a sister unit, then they get the SoF. Don't be suprised if a FAQ comes out, the FAQ will rule in the WH favor the same way that they made sure holy hatred cancels out wych weapons. Any sister unit which tries to shoot harlies becomes affected by a psyker power. Harlies get a free-pass power by having it always be turned on and never have to take a test. But like everything else in the 40K paper-rock-scissor rules set, this is a case where one army has the ability to nullify the power.