Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
While I understand that it's along the lines of comparing apples and oranges, but, with my experience with marines, it's almost a forgone conclusion to choose a Devastator Squad over any of the armor aviable to the marines.
Is the same thing to be said for The Guard?
I've done alittle bit of point analysis I'd like to outline here now;
A Leman Russ with, what I consider to be, nessicary armor selections;
Hull Mounted heavy bolter
Side Sponsons heavy bolters
Total; 170 points
This set up allows for either one battle cannon shot, or a maximum total of 9 shots (at strength 5, ap 4) on the move, or stationary.
Now, below is a list for a kitted out Heavy Weapons Platoon;
Junior officer with one heavy bolter
two attached 'Fire Support Squads' with 3 heavy bolters each (total of 6)
Heavy weapons platoon
3 'fire support squads' with a 3 heavy bolters each (total of 9)
Total; 450 points
Now, the Heavy Weapons Platoon is no where nearly as mobile as Leman Russ, but, with 16 heavy bolters, one could saturate his deployment zone with so much anti infantry power that they'd be able to establish massive fire lanes and be able to dominate parts of the board from turn one. Or you could make a massive, deeply fortified firing line with which to help secure your own deployment zone. With sixteen heavy bolters, that's a maxium of sixty three shots.
A single shot from a lascannon, or a missle launcher is capable of completely destroying a Leman Russ, where as such weapons, as well as others, are capable of only destroying a portion of the heavy weapons platoon.
My thinking would be to take one of the above mentioned heavy weapons platoons (or something close to it), and add in a leman russ for support. Sort of a reverse for classic armor/infantry relation, but, with one, or even two of the above mentioned platoons, you've got a massive anvil to slam the enemy against.
Comments? Critiques? Critisisms?
"This has nothing to do with rules and regulations, and everything to do with wrong and right."- Ray Liotta, NARC
Well first thing Track Guards are not what i would call a nessicary. Maybe they are for you but that may be because of the battle grounds that you play on.
The thing is it is very hard to get a shot of with a lascannon squad and keep them safe while doing so as just 1 round of bother fire may wipe out the squad or kill off so many of them that they run off. These guys cost a ton if you give them anti-tank weaponry and as such they become a very big target in the same way that a tank would be. Support squads are better as they don't stand out so much and 3 heavy bolters can make up for putting your lascannons in normal line squads to keep them safe.
Theres also the fact that the leman russ is a infantry killer while the heavy weapon squad can be both but it is very weak and costs only 40 odd points less then the leman which can take lascannon hits without much to worry about. Space marine tanks are not as useful and have weaker armour then guard battle tanks so most people like hiding there heavy weapons behind power armour but that dosn't hold true with the guard as flank armour isn't the best protection money can bye.
The thing with the Guard is that it tends to be a very static army. The infantry selection you've got there does indeed chuck out a hell of a lot of shots but it's not likely to move much. Sometimes that might not be a problem, sometimes it can be a right pain in the bum. The nice thing with the Leman Russ is that you've got the firepower and the manouverability (although true, it's a lot of points sunk into a single model that could be taken out with a single shot).
My way of thinking would be - hey, it's the Guard; take both!
So my humble Guardsman's fist is as strong as a blast from his laser rifle?
Just one more thing, the JO cannot have attached Fire Support squads as he is not the Command Platoon. So you'd need to drop them.Originally Posted by epic933
I'm with the "take both"-fraction. Take a Russ and have some Heavy Bolters as Fire Support for your Command Squad, possibly as HS too.
Andusciassus he is talking about a heavy weapons platoon, he can take fire support squads.
As for the question here: Go with the leman russ. Guard have a big problem with nothing being able to take hits, so get something that can. I prefer the demolisher so that you can scare the living sh1t out of terminators. Either fire a str10 AP2 ordinance weapon or fire the 2 plasma cannons to do small plasma spash on them, o yes and the lascannon. I also like the improved armour. One game a heavy destroyer spent almost the entire game shooting at the side armour and did nothing. Ok 1 shaken.
There is also the comparison of points costs, you could almost get 3 leman russes for the cost of your heavy weapons platoon.
But your not forced to take a full 3 heavy weapon squads when you take a platoon and even then most players would take them with the command squad before they started taking up there heavy support slots up. A leman russ with heavy bolters is only 40 odd points less then a lascannon support squad but they both proform different roles so as a above posted said take both if you need to.
when I do my guard army, i am doing a forgeworld/cadian conversian ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS army, and they use grav chutes, so therfore, the only used vehicle is the sentinel.
on that note, take both, but if u don't have the points, take the heavy weaopns. yes, there is the manuverabilty (spelling?) issue, but with good deployment, u can have deadly shooting fun. consider this
With the tank, u get a mobile fire base, but it cam be destroyed from one lascannon/railgun/melta/dark lance shot.
with the heavy weapons, u get firepower and the ability to survuve longer, buy u rarely move. but with deployment, there shiyuldn't be a need to move.
hope this helps.
"Like frenzied beasts, they was. But I tell you, there was never a sweeter sound than the howls of the Wulfen that night."
Sgt. Pridman, veteran of the Tlax slaughter
I know he's talking about Heavy Weapons Platoons but I still say he cannot take more than the 1-3 Support Squads. A HW Platoon consists of a JO and 1-3 Support squads. Not 1-5, not 1-8 support squads. 1-3.Originally Posted by Rabid_IBM
A Command Platoon can have support squads "attached" but a JO for the HW-platoon is not a command Platoon -it's just a JO and his four Guards (plus any advisors attached of course).
Check it out on p38.
If the HWP were to include a Command Platoon I would have agreed, but now they are not.
Sorry, Rabid_IBM, but Andusciassus is correct. Although it was probably jusy a brainfart on your part!
The main reason I would never take a heavy weapon platoon 'HWP' (except in very large battles) is deployment.
The HWP generally has to deploy first - as it is a heavy support option.
If you instead take those same support squads with your HQ, they get to deploy as a HQ choice, and hopefully this means that all of your opponents juicy targets have already been placed, thus you can deploy your ludicrous heavy bolters accordingly.
A leman russ is also more usefull in that it can move and fire heavy weapons, and I firmly believe this ability to be the best thing you can have in the game of 40K.
A leman russ can work wonders in conjunction with HQ support squads, with the leman russ herding the enemy, and the support squads being placed MUCH later in great firing positions. This is not as easily possible when using a leman russ in conjunction with another heavy support choice, such as a HWP.
"Pickles, the drummer, doodily doo. (Ding-dong, doodily, doodily, doo.)"
Also, you should google "garfield minus garfield". Awesome.