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Short introduction: I have been playing 40k since the release of 3rd edition. My favorite army has always been the Black Templars. I have collected other armies, but I always returned to my Templars for both tournies and friendly games. I took a long break a bit after 4th edition, and got my new Templar codex today.
I am here seeking advice. I simply can't understand how the new templars are to be played. I played 2 games using my old army lists(which I modified for new costs and whatnot) versus an old friend, and got vaporised.
I did some "trolling" around, and saw most people include neophytes at their lists. As a player who always fields save 3+ models, I think something worse than that simply doesn't have enough bang for its buck. Also, I always used to take the vow that counts every model having the preferred enemy rule, and neophytes don't benefit from it. Also since I can't effectively rhino rush with them, they don't seem useful to me. Comments?
On this topic, I see the new design is more foot slogging oriented. I'm confused with the Righteous Zeal rule, since a clever opponent can use it to throw me totally off track with dummy transports or cheap fast stuff, and my Initiates' "low" leadership made a marshal mandatory. Also due to universal rules changing, the Crusader isn't the king of vehicles nowadays, making it something like the normal land raider: A nice transport. I also saw many people advising against it.
I always used to field 7 assault terminators and a chaplain in a crusader, and I still think I'm gonna keep using that whole unit (that takes a large amount of my points, but always does the job) but what else to field?
My questions are:
a) Are Rhino rushes useful now? Or am I better foot slogging the troops?
b) Should I always include a Marshal so I can pass most morale tests, or risk some falling back at the most inappropriate moment?
c) How about the assault termies+chap+crusader? Back in old days, eliminating the opponent was 90% of the game. Who could capture quarters or whatnot if there was noone remaining? But now... reading the missions, I see objective capturing more important.
d) What to chose for my heavy support? 6 man lascannons? Predators?
e) Are sword brethren even remotely worth it? Right now I think they are a waste.
f) Dreadnought - love or hate? I got 2 of those, I'd hate to miss them. I always liked them as las/cc weapon with extra armor and smokes.
I know I should probably post this in the army list section, but it's totally interwoven with the above mentioned questions, so please bear with me.
2000 (199 Black Templars, all around:
Emperor's Champion, Accept any challenge. 140.
Reclusiarch, Termi armor, L-claws. 150.
Dreadnought, Tl lascannon, extra armor, smoke launchers. 133.
7 Terminators, 280 points.
Transport: Crusader, smoke launchers 268.
10 Initiates, bp+cc weap, plasma gun, power fist. 181.
Transport: Rhino. 50.
9 Initiates, bp+cc weap, plasma gun, power fist. 165.
Transport: Rhino. 50.
7 Initiates, bp+cc weap, plasma gun, power fist. 134.
7 Initiates, bp+cc weap, plasma gun, power fist. 144.
1 Neophyte, bp+cc weap.
Fast attack: 2x Land Speeder Tornado. 160.
Heavy support: 1 predator annihilator with lascannons. 145.
Is this working? I appreciate the help.
You should post your army list in the army list section. However, I can answer about the neophytes usefullness. YES. Extra wounds and extra attacks.
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A) All or nothing is a good method. If you have small but plenty of squads and want to close the gap, then throw them in their coffins and prey the make it. If you have full sized crusader squads, make seem like the most important shooting priorty to your opponent (10 initiates and 8 neophytes.. they seem to take priority to me) then let the RZ move them up the field. Always have less neophytes then inits for majority rule on toughness and armour. Always!
High morale is great. Everyone with max leadership is a great thing and I can't find a lesser need.
C) A lot of points in one vehicle. And once that vehicle is gone, its a long and slow walk with termies. Jump packing chappy with assault marines is much better points wise.
D) Refer to F
E) Not unless you have a few in a razor back. I don't see them making a major output, but with the mobility and combat goodness it might be nice to have a swat team to take the fight to the enemy.
F) Take both. One with the assault cannon and the other with TL Lascannons. Both are good to fill the roll of heavy support (all mighty assault cannon! praise it). For the assaulty one, you might want to consider exchanging the storm bolter for a flamer as templar love combat.
G) Welcome to LO! We hope you enjoy your stay.
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A another fellow BT player, I'll see if I can help you out.
A: I use the foot slogger version BT army, and it has never let me down yet. Having played around 20 games with them and with 2 close loses, i noticed my oppenents have a hard time chosing who or which squad to shoot at and many dont want to thanks to the righteous zeal rule. I guess rino rushes could work too, but you need to spend a fair amount of points on the rinos, plus the extra armor and smoke upgrades, where you can easily get more neo's for CC, but its your choice.
B: For a footslogger army, the Marshal is a must due to a lot of your squads being shot at in a single turn. But if you go w/rinos, you could still use him for the leadership just un case but make him cheap if you do this.
C: Assult termies with a chappy and crusader is what a lot of other BT do, but it is still a lot of points in unit and though it is rare, I've seen a squad just like that get destroyeds almost immediatly because it becomes a target for every anti-tank weapon on the field.
D: I run Vindicators as my only heavy for both anti tank and infantry and 2 bike squads fitted out as tank hunters, as well as my dreadnoughts. But it your choice. Do you want more troops for CC and let the Preds worry about the oppents heavy or do you want it the other way around?
E: Yes. They arent really that usseful and you would be better using terminators or even a standard crusader squad.
F: I run both of mine w/lascannons and missle launchers because I already have plenty of troops to take out the oppents infantry support.
Hope this helps
As far as the slogging goes, I think this is the way the codex was run. First and foremost, make sure you really understand what RZ requires of you when you make a RZ move. At Adepticon (and on Bolter and Chainsword and Warseer) the common understanding of the RZ movement means that "you must move up to d6" towards the nearest visible enemy unit". This is taken with the understanding that a massacre move replaces the 3" from a consolidate move (from the up to 3") with d6". That's how I've always played it, and what the RAW supports. Anyway, give the consolidate portion of the book a good read before you play again, it might change your tactics a bit. We aren't Khorne, after all.
But a 15-man crusader squad with a chaplain, 3 CS, a PF & MG can just about kill anything it comes across. The real trick I've found is keeping the unit scoring at the end of the game by limiting casualties.
In general, I've found that a mech-heavy list doesn't need a marshal and really benefits from a chaplain, while a footslogging list needs the marshal.
Another option is the good old terminator squad with 2 AC in cover. They can do a number on just about anything in range. Or a vindicator, which scares the pants off of MEQ opponents.
Just my two cents.
"Listen up you primitive screwheads ... see this ... this is my BOOM-stick!" - Ash
"I told you, it's not Pink! It's Light Red!" Donut on his new power-armor.
a) I could elaborate all day on this. I run a mechanized BT forcehttp://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ournament.html, and it works wonders for me, I currently have a 67% win-loss ratio... and got awarded best general at a Tourney a few months back. The rhino is a great way to get your men into position... sometimes to assault straight away, but usually to begin a foot assault from closer than your deployment zone. The rhino also helps you negate the effects of RZ, as you are in a transport you can control your men. Of course there is the chance that teh transport will get blown away, but this is a risk worth taking.a) Are Rhino rushes useful now? Or am I better foot slogging the troops?
b) This point also ties in with point a. A rhino, with XA and smoke is 58pts, that is the equivalent of 3 marines and a neophyte. When taking big foot squads you begin at least 24" away from the enemy, and have to slog it across the field, of course aided by chaplains it is faster... you usually take 3 or 4 marine casualties 'at least' from enemy shooting before you arrive, and that is when al goes well, sometime I find that the only thing that gets into combat is my chappy (or any attached characters). So with the rhino, you take a risk, but with 10 marines instead of starting your advance 24" away you begin wherever you want to, usually right in front of them, this is somtehing that I could go more into detail with later, but you get the point.It really depends... for example, in my mechanized army I run a chappy. This is because I only have 2 cc squads (one with chappy and one with EC) the other squads are either small enough to not need the ld, or termies... in which case the character would be a little overkill.b) Should I always include a Marshal so I can pass most morale tests, or risk some falling back at the most inappropriate moment?
-The chappie is also good because of the cheap PW and inv save, as well as the re-roll for attacks and when teking RZ you can choose where to go. Giving you more control over a certain squad.
-The marshal on the other hand is great when you have too many squads for 2 chappies and an EC to handle(more than 3)... so only really take him if your tactics will revolve around him, or if you take alot of assault squads, or bikes, that dont benefit form RZ.C) Ahh yes, the old awsome combo... now it is even more awsomer (pardon my vocabulary ), as you get the super rerolls for the chappie, and the Furious charge for the termies, making them the uber killy-killy unit. 'However' this is a very pricy combo, and if taken must do well, it is a game breaker, they hit hard, they kill stuff. They hit bad... your in trouble. If they down the crusader your f@#&ed. They are still very usefull, adn deal a great fear factor. Now with blessed armour, even those puny eldar fear it! Just watch the crusader!... for if it falls, you fall. It is great fun if it works. As for objectives, they can grab em as well as kill anything that can take objectives that teh enemy can trow at them!.c) How about the assault termies+chap+crusader? Back in old days, eliminating the opponent was 90% of the game. Who could capture quarters or whatnot if there was noone remaining? But now... reading the missions, I see objective capturing more important.D) Either or, Id prefer the pred, as it does not require target priority...d) What to chose for my heavy support? 6 man lascannons? Predators?E) IMO, they are great model, would not use them in competitive games... terminator sword brethren yes.. not the power armoured ones... although the ability to give termie honours just to the guys you want is neat... I am going to try out a unit of them soon, but they compete with my termies for a spot.. and the termies win out every time!.e) Are sword brethren even remotely worth it? Right now I think they are a waste.F) Dreads are nice... Heavy flamer, and drop pod, to get mots out of them... but lascannon is good too, giving the advancing templar some covering fire.f) Dreadnought - love or hate? I got 2 of those, I'd hate to miss them. I always liked them as las/cc weapon with extra armor and smokes.
Mek shure to check out my blog, I have tons of batreps and the like, here. as well as on the B&C.. hope this helps you out.