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  1. #1
    Senior Member distortiondave's Avatar
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    Salamander Successors?

    Hi chaps and chapesses

    Ok, I know nothing about the Salamanders, but noticed t'other day that they don't have any successor chapters.
    WHats the reason for this? Are they still at Legion strength then, or were they almost wiped out and so couldn' spare enough to form new chapters?
    Would a DIY Salamander successor Chapter be unlikely and why?
    etc etc

    I know a bit about most chapters, but these have slipped the net.

    Cheers

    I can't say I've seen it all but I live for the things that keep me hollow.

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  3. #2
    Ni!! davidH's Avatar
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    Im no fluff master but the main reason I can see as to their low numbers of later foundings (naturally GW has left it open to interpretation by simply saying "non known") is that they are a small chapter. They take their recruits from one of the most inhospitable planets in the galaxy, Nocturne, which is covered in volcanoes and is either located in the Segmentum tempestus or the Ultima segmentum depending upon wether you read the rule book or the Armageddon. Their fortress monastry is described as "little more than a large space port. They may be old and wise but they are few of number and therefore they cannot produce as many geneseed samples as other chapters and therefore less foundings.

    However a further reason may be nescessary because even if you cannot produce much geneseed you still should have at least a few foundings like the iron hands do. Armageddon refers to the promethean cult and that it is heavily influenced by their fiery world. Perhaps the thought of any salamander leaving their world for a different one is too incomprehensible for their ancient beliefs and traditions like walking on coals and holding red hot iron.

    This is just my ideas and there are more than a few "fluffies" around so hang about for any second opinions.

    I can definately say that they are not at legion strength, no single chapter is any more, not since the Horus Heresy.
    Last edited by davidH; July 19th, 2007 at 13:07.
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  4. #3
    Senior Member bladeofdeath3's Avatar
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    after finishing the "Horus Heresy Collected Visions" book, the answer why the salamanders have no successor chapters is because they were nearly wiped out in the Isstvan V Drop Site Massacre. To sum it up, a task force of the Raven Guard, the Iron Hands, the Salamanders, the Alpha Legion, the Night Lords, the World Eaters, and the Iron Warriors were ordered to attack Horus' headquarters on Isstvan V after his betrayal during the assault on Isstvan III. Horus had effectively four legions under his command at the time, his Sons of Horus, the Emperor's Children, the Death Guard, and Word Bearers. The first wave of the loyalist assault was the legions of the Salamanders, the Raven Guard, and the Iron Hands, the first 3 legions to reach the Isstvan system. Upon making landfall, the loyalists recieved stiff resistance from the traitors, but slowly, the traitors gave ground. Upon the arrival of the other 4 legions, the traitors began to fall back. There, Ferrus Manus, primarch of the Iron Hands approached Fulgrim, primarch of the Emperor's Children. Fulgrim, who failed to turn Ferrus Manus to the traitor's side in a previous event gave the Iron Warrior primarch a chance to surrender and allow his men to live. Having the offensive, Ferrus Manus refuses. Only then did Fulgrim reveal the secret, the 4 legions sent to back up the Iron Hands, the Salamanders, and the Raven Guard were actually aligned with Horus. After learning this, Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim began their titanic clash, in which only one would remain. After the 4 "reinforcement" legions made planetfall, the other traitor legions began a renewed offensive. Having to fight traitors in 2 fronts, the 3 loyalist legions were nearly wiped out, with remnants of a few companies managing to escape. Among the survivors was Corvax, the only primarch who escaped Isstvan V. Ferrus Manus was slain by Fulgrim and Vulcan, the primarch of the Salamanders, went missing.

    So the reason the Salamanders, have no successor chapters is because the Salamanders were nearly wiped out at Isstvan V. Elements of the Raven Guard managed to escape, allowing them to have successor chapters such as the Black Guard, the Revilers, and the Raptors. Only 5 companies of Iron Hands veteran participated in the Isstvan V battle, allowing them to have successor chapters.

    Hope this helps.

  5. #4
    Senior Member The Daywalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladeofdeath3 View Post
    after finishing the "Horus Heresy Collected Visions" book, the answer why the salamanders have no successor chapters is because they were nearly wiped out in the Isstvan V Drop Site Massacre. To sum it up, a task force of the Raven Guard, the Iron Hands, the Salamanders, the Alpha Legion, the Night Lords, the World Eaters(Word Bearers here not the world eaters they were with horus already), and the Iron Warriors were ordered to attack Horus' headquarters on Isstvan V after his betrayal during the assault on Isstvan III. Horus had effectively four legions under his command at the time, his Sons of Horus, the Emperor's Children, the Death Guard, and Word Bearers(World Eaters here). The first wave of the loyalist assault was the legions of the Salamanders, the Raven Guard, and the Iron Hands, the first 3 legions to reach the Isstvan system. Upon making landfall, the loyalists recieved stiff resistance from the traitors, but slowly, the traitors gave ground. Upon the arrival of the other 4 legions, the traitors began to fall back. There, Ferrus Manus, primarch of the Iron Hands approached Fulgrim, primarch of the Emperor's Children. Fulgrim, who failed to turn Ferrus Manus to the traitor's side in a previous event gave the Iron Warrior(Iron Hands primarch Pteurabo was the Iron Warriors) primarch a chance to surrender and allow his men to live. Having the offensive, Ferrus Manus refuses. Only then did Fulgrim reveal the secret, the 4 legions sent to back up the Iron Hands, the Salamanders, and the Raven Guard were actually aligned with Horus. After learning this, Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim began their titanic clash, in which only one would remain. After the 4 "reinforcement" legions made planetfall, the other traitor legions began a renewed offensive. Having to fight traitors in 2 fronts, the 3 loyalist legions were nearly wiped out, with remnants of a few companies managing to escape. Among the survivors was Corvax(Corax), the only primarch who escaped Isstvan V. Ferrus Manus was slain by Fulgrim and Vulcan, the primarch of the Salamanders, went missing.(Vulcan was later said to have rejected the Codex Astartes and the splitting of his legion, along with Dorn and Russ)

    So the reason the Salamanders, have no successor chapters is because the Salamanders were nearly wiped out at Isstvan V. Elements of the Raven Guard managed to escape, allowing them to have successor chapters such as the Black Guard, the Revilers, and the Raptors. Only 5 companies of Iron Hands veteran participated in the Isstvan V battle, allowing them to have successor chapters.

    Hope this helps.
    So basically, the Salamanders were almost destroyed. And Vulcan didnt want to split his legion up anyways. YOu could make a successor on the Salamanders do what you want its your army. It wouldnt be to fluffy though because technally they are still in the process of rebuilding.


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  6. #5
    Senior Member Grand Master Belial's Avatar
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    When the Armageddon Codex came out the Salamanders only had 7 Companies. Not nearly enough to create a successor. However, they are still force to send a portion to Terra for storage and testing. It is from these that new Chapters are raised during a Founding. There is fluff stating that they can reproduce more gene-seed in vats using basically blank clones and grow more gene-seed in controlled conditions. This could give you the out you need. Though without a Heavy-grav world they won't quite match up with the old stats. They would still play as normal marines but from Vulkan's geneseed instead of Gulliman's

    Here's the link to the GW Webpage.

  7. #6
    Senior Member distortiondave's Avatar
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    'The Salamanders have no successor chapters from the Second Founding, however, chapters from subsequent Foundings are believed to include the Storm Giants and Black Dragons. These chapters appear to share similarities in physique, tactical doctrines and dogma to the Salamanders. The Black Dragons were later rewritten as products of the "cursed" 21st founding.'

    I've lifted this from wiki.

    There are various no go zones when creating a DIY chapter - chaos legion turned good, one of the missing legions, a completely new primarch etc - would a cursed 21st founding DIY chapter be a no go?
    Would think a 21st founding chapter would give the biggest scope for conversion and themes, but in a lot of the fluff I read on here no one seems to go down that route. I take it there is a reason for this?
    I can't say I've seen it all but I live for the things that keep me hollow.

  8. #7
    Member bannus's Avatar
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    It isn't that the Salamanders have no Successor Chapters - they have no known Successor Chapters.

    Unlike the other Legions, the Salamanders had no First Founding Successors. This is because the Legion was small to begin with and suffered terribly on Istvaan V. Unlike the Raven Guard, the Salamanders did not use forbidden gene-seed replicating practices to quickly rebuild their Legion. So they were simply too small to split at the sime of the first Founding.

    However, it is likely that they do have Successor Chapters because their gene-seen is quite stable. The wiki article is accurate (will wonders ever cease?): Two Chapters that are suspected to be Salamander Successors are the Storm Giants and the Black Dragons as they have similar attributes and combat doctrines.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Grand Master Belial's Avatar
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    13th 'Dark' and 21st 'Cursed' Founding is open territory save that they must be cursed in some way. In terms of background and gaming it will also limit you in that you won't have Imperial Allies as you would be hunted and killed save the occasional Radical Inquisitor.

  10. #9
    things will change minus_t's Avatar
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    There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a Salamanders successor chapter, although they would almost certainly not be from the second founding (as discussed above).

    Subsequent foundings are open game

    As a side note, the 21st 'Cursed' Founding was (probably) an attempt by some of the more radical elements in the Imperium to recreate the Primarchs, although it didn't go so well.
    See Index Astartes II for 'details'...

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