Always Strike First - New HE Changes the Face of WH?

[Lurch]

I went to the GT heat 3 qualifier over the weekend and a lot of the people that were there were talking about getting a high elf army before the finals in February, just because it is a new book and people have not adjusted to it yet. Should be quite interesting when half the players have them :party:

Personally I don't see the big deal with always strike first, lets face it high elves needed something. They were soft and squishy before and at least not they make you think about how to engage them. I am now waiting to see what they do with the dark elf army, as that also needs some serious sorting out.

[MVBrandt]

My only comment is in regard to the incredulity of swordmasters skipping the lance. Dodging long spears was exactly how the Romans slaughtered the Greek phalanxes ... lightly armored, quick-moving guys with swords who would duck/sidestep/etc. the oncoming phalanx and get in close to the Greeks before they could do jack about it. It's not that much of a stretch to see an inhumanly agile and trained elf dock/dodge/sidestep a charging knight and cleave a rider in two before he can drop the lance and draw his own sword/mace/etc.

[Cyric the Mad]

Originally Posted by Lurch

I went to the GT heat 3 qualifier over the weekend and a lot of the people that were there were talking about getting a high elf army before the finals in February, just because it is a new book and people have not adjusted to it yet. Should be quite interesting when half the players have them

I'd be curious to see what kind of lists do well. I have yet to see a list out of this High Elf book that seems truly dominating. The dragon-heavy list sure looks cool, but since when do monstrous creatures pay off?

[Nachtjager]

Originally Posted by MVBrandt

My only comment is in regard to the incredulity of swordmasters skipping the lance. Dodging long spears was exactly how the Romans slaughtered the Greek phalanxes ... lightly armored, quick-moving guys with swords who would duck/sidestep/etc. the oncoming phalanx and get in close to the Greeks before they could do jack about it. It's not that much of a stretch to see an inhumanly agile and trained elf dock/dodge/sidestep a charging knight and cleave a rider in two before he can drop the lance and draw his own sword/mace/etc.

This is very true, however the romans in question used a gladius, a short sword, not an unwieldy double hander, take it from someone who's trained with em, you aren't going to be doing a huge amount of dodging with one, short of ducking under the lance, then you'll probably get trampled. Also the idea you give is for use against a phalanx which fought in a stationary formation, the same is unlikely to work against charging heavy horse. This view also holds for me for the white lions.

The pheonix guard and spearmen i can actually see striking first due to the long weapons, and in sword to sword combat between rank and file troops i can happily accept the fluff behind the rule, as an elf would be quicker than most but as a reaction to a charge by lance wielding troops, that a 2 handed weapon wielder would strike first is incredulous.

[joecool]

All of the comments about the elves being so agile that they dodge under and around spears and lances to represent them stiking first doesnt make sense to me. If the elves are in fact dodging around and under spears that would mean that the spear weilding opponents are attacking first but missing.

Not every rule is going to make sense in every situation. I play Sisters of Battle in 40k and their is something called divine guidance which helps them aim their shots into crevices and such in enemy armor...yet it also has its effect on flame throwers.

Everything in warhammer or 40k is simplified to a point, for better or for worse, but we just have to live with it.

[Cyric the Mad]

I suppose I'm just not completely behind the idea that everything in a fantasy setting must have a historical precedent in order to retain credibility. The fact that we have not seen and cannot understand an act does not make the act impossible in a setting where typical rules do not apply. As was mentioned, the High Elves have always been an intrinsically magical race, so simple enhancement along those lines would allow for these impossibilities to occur - after all, making the impossible possible is why we have magic in these games to begin with.

[Arklite]

My only comment is in regard to the incredulity of swordmasters skipping the lance. Dodging long spears was exactly how the Romans slaughtered the Greek phalanxes ... lightly armored, quick-moving guys with swords who would duck/sidestep/etc. the oncoming phalanx and get in close to the Greeks before they could do jack about it. It's not that much of a stretch to see an inhumanly agile and trained elf dock/dodge/sidestep a charging knight and cleave a rider in two before he can drop the lance and draw his own sword/mace/etc.

heh, sadly not quite accurate, the reason the roman legion was able to defeat the Greek phalanx had little to do with manoeuvrability of the common soldier, Romans in fact fought in incredibly tight formations, it was because the overall formation was more flexible, the Romans were able to hold a reserve of troops for example, a phalanx once committed couldn't be pulled back or reinforced. The Romans were more often than not able to outflank the Greek formations and surround the phalanx destroying it.


As for knights their general effectiveness in reality is over rated. It was well known that knights couldn't break through a resolute infantry formation as demonstrated at the battle of bannock burn or the French wars against the Flemish, more often than not the knights only succeeded due to the infantry breaking ranks in panic.

Could sword masters dodge the lance then strike first? its unlikely but it could be reasoned in any number of ways, perhaps they parry the lance? maybe they teleport behind the knight? Who knows? Its just a rule. The moment we try to put it into reality the moment it turns into a pointless argument.

Is always strikes first going to wreak the game? I think not. We thought the ogres would eat us all, we thought the dwarves were too good, we reckoned the wood elves were unbeatable. Were we wrong? Too damn right we were, I crush ogres and beat up wood elves in their own deployment zones. The high elves will be defeated with just a little thought. I personally don't have anything to worry about, i was striking last and getting charged anyways, not loosing anything or gaining. elves will still bounce off of dwarf warriors/dwarf elites just like they did before. if anything the elves are even worse off against me due to their low numbers and lack of points effective screening units.

Thunderers anyone?

People calm down and just think. Surround them, out manoeuvre them, bog them down with resolute troops, just shoot the hell out of them. They will die like anyone else, if not faster.

[Nachtjager]

Originally Posted by Cyric the Mad

I suppose I'm just not completely behind the idea that everything in a fantasy setting must have a historical precedent in order to retain credibility. The fact that we have not seen and cannot understand an act does not make the act impossible in a setting where typical rules do not apply. As was mentioned, the High Elves have always been an intrinsically magical race, so simple enhancement along those lines would allow for these impossibilities to occur - after all, making the impossible possible is why we have magic in these games to begin with.

That is entirely fair enough, it does not have to be underpinned by history or anything like that, but even in a fantasy system it is nice to keep it believable within the system. And for me, that a creature, no matter how nimble, could strike before fast moving units weilding weapons with longer reach is silly, short of jumping over the weapon or something like thath there would be little that could be done to strike first against lance or spear once combat is joined, short of every blade weilded being the equivalent of one of the magic blades for striking first available to heroes.

It will make little difference as arklite said, they will die like everyone else.

[MobiusPrime]

Originally Posted by Arklite

I personally don't have anything to worry about, i was striking last and getting charged anyways, not loosing anything or gaining.

This is what I'm all about. My skeletons are M4, I2 troops. Elves are M5, I5 troops. I was getting charged and being hit first anyways. It was almost like the Elves already had ASF vs me.

I'll just stick to my basic strategy to beat the new elves. You hit my skeleton block, fail to kill 33 soldiers in one turn and then I flank you with Ushabti or Chariots. Goodbye expensive PG/WL/SM unit.

[buckero0]

Originally Posted by Lurch

I went to the GT heat 3 qualifier over the weekend and a lot of the people that were there were talking about getting a high elf army before the finals in February, just because it is a new book and people have not adjusted to it yet. Should be quite interesting when half the players have them :party:

Personally I don't see the big deal with always strike first, lets face it high elves needed something. They were soft and squishy before and at least not they make you think about how to engage them. I am now waiting to see what they do with the dark elf army, as that also needs some serious sorting out.

actually, having played the new book, I think the HE book got weaker. You practically have to take a Star Dragon (not a good way to make friends) in order to win. The price of the troops makes sure that you will be outnumbered nearly 3to1 by everyone. I think that if you can't take a well balanced army and be competative, then the book is weak. Just like Empire has to take the WALTER to be effective, the new HE will almost always have a star dragon at the tournament scene.