Always Strike First - New HE Changes the Face of WH?

[Archnomad]

Originally Posted by Triumph Of Man

I can't see it being horrible for the spear elves, fair enough they should strike first with their long stabby implements against a charging enemy. But a Sword Master armed with a great weapon getting his hit in ahead of a Knight with a 10 foot lance? Just how the hell did he manage that short of flinging his sword at the knight?

QFT, i disagree fluffwise, but army wise i do agree, i think HE are goign to make a comeback!!! (they still die from 300+ zombies though....)

This is going in my sig though, rep!

[Demandred]

I must admit that I was one of those people crying out against the HE book before I really ever sat down and seriously thought about their army composition. When I finally went out and bought the book and started making sample lists, most of my preconceptions were thrown out the window.

I knew the HE were outnumbered, but from the lists I saw in the forum I assumed it was because people were loading up on elite infantry, even the lists I made that had more spearelves than elite infantry were incredibly small. Their armor is also quite appalling, the best thing they get against shooting is that white lions get a 3+, EVERY other infantry unit has a 5+. Being an OK player I am used to little to no armor, however I also have a high toughness and number of wounds per model.

As for the swordmasters striking first, from a fluff view they are call the Swordmasters of Hoeth. Hoeth being the god of magic, is it really hard to assume that they might have some magical tricks up their sleeve? Besides the fact that they train for hundreds if not thousands of years with their chosen weapon. Even many "normal" elves know some small magical tricks to make everyday chores and stuff easier.

The only huge change that ASF gives elves is that they can be played slightly more defensively now, that is, if they want to sit back and get slaughtered by any ranged units their opponents might have.

[churchic]

Not all High Elf armies are going to be outnumbered. I went on a shopping spree and bought tons of High Elves this weekend (around 2,500 pts to be exact), my bank account is pretty upset with me. And made a list that had over 100 models in it...it was a lot of fun to play with and was suprisingly effective.

[frozencore]

While I understand the blanket ASF rule makes the game simpler, I would rather see it as a conditional ability. Like if the unit gets charged in the flank or especially the rear how are they able to know what is coming? If the unit gets charged by two enemy units at once it would be nice if they "readied" against one of the sides (front) getting ASF against that one but not against the other. Why do rank and file elf troops get to strike before a Chaos Lord? Should soldiers trained with the use of a bow be able to strike first in melee?

While I accept the rule and how it will change the face of the game (cause there isn't anything we can do about it now that the book is in print). I just feel they could have made it better, and justified it better.

Why do they strike first? Is it training? Then why do they strike before demons, lords, vampires, or even other elves? Is it because they are elves? Why don't wood elves have his ability? Is it because of their magic? Then why don't tzeentch armies have this perk, or armies that field a slaan? After all the high elves were trained by the slaan. People can try and justify it any way they want, it doesn't make sense, but a lot about warhammer doesn't make sense. It is a game and has to constantly abstract things, I just wish they done a better job.

If they had asked me, I would have said always strikes in initiative order would have been the way to go, just like the old swordmasters. It would have been more easily justifiable, and would have made more sense. Rank and file troops would have hit before other troops but not against high initiative lord choices. But they didn't ask me, and they didn't ask you either, so we are just going to have to accept it.

[Rork]

Originally Posted by buckero0

You practically have to take a Star Dragon (not a good way to make friends) in order to win.

I'd say that's rather lazy thinking. While high elves are outnumbered, it means you've got to be more careful and use each unit as it is intended. If players are prepared to take the time to learn their army then they can take on any opponent.

The imperative is to learn, not to win. It is no good winning 10 games with a dragon-led list if you learn nothing in the process.

[CaptainSarathai]

basically, when it comes to tactics for beating us- I summed it up in my earlier post.

And when it comes to tournament armies taking a Star Dragon... ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?! Dragons will not appear in tourney armies. No army takes them because they are cannon-targets. Big 700pt beasties are too valuable for something killed so easily by a 100pt artillery peice.

I think that what you will see in tournament armies is a large unit 20+ of Lothern Seagaurd, flanked by however many spears you need to fill out your troops choices. Perhaps 10 archers to shield a mage, but that's doubtful. From there, you will see a great many Dragon Princes, or HUGE units of Swordmasters with chariots to flank. The Rare choices will be filled out with RBTs- i doubt eagles will be seen as particularly valuable. They are too expensive for suicidal warmachine hunting, and we need missile weapons to counteract the 'sit back and shoot us' tactic that everyone has been mentioning. Lists with 5 RBTs are still going to be really beardy (even moreso than the Star Dragon), but aren't all tournament lists that way?

Basically, elf lists are hamstrung in their fundamentals. It used to be that we could take an All-Cav list so that we were fighting in CC by turn 2 and you had precious little time to shoot us. Now, we MUST have infantry for you to shoot, and worse still- it takes points away from our Cavalry. I am basically playing games with 400pts less than my opponent, because I have to take two units of Spearelves along with all my offensive cavalry. My cavalry get into combat, and my spearelves just sit around and pick their noses all game. Tournament lists (and all HE lists in general) are going to be stuck between going Cav heavy and fighting at bad odds, or going with a phalanx and getting shot to hell.

Either way looks pretty bleak for us- i prefer the old list. The only nice thing about the new list is the ability to make themed armies. Not really winners, but fun to play.

[LahmiaVampire]

While I understand the blanket ASF rule makes the game simpler, I would rather see it as a conditional ability. Like if the unit gets charged in the flank or especially the rear how are they able to know what is coming? If the unit gets charged by two enemy units at once it would be nice if they "readied" against one of the sides (front) getting ASF against that one but not against the other. Why do rank and file elf troops get to strike before a Chaos Lord? Should soldiers trained with the use of a bow be able to strike first in melee?

I agree, can't see why such rules should be unadvanced. There is too many buggy parts of warhammer anyway (I mean when you must use "common sense" in the movement phase -.-'). More conditional rules would be nice. Also, as GW always is interested in profit, advanced rules means that more quite unactive warhammer players would buy the books instead of only having all special rules on the army builder.

Hm, maybe I shouldn't say too much as I am quite of a noob (still mostly playing version 6 as the main rulebook is nearly exactly the same, doesn't want to buy it and doesn't want to have the rules only on the computer downloaded from tpb)

I have made some army lists with stories, special tules and descriptions myself. One of those army lists is Nehekhara (you know, the ancient kingdom north of Araby where Nagash and Neferata Lahmia comes from.) That army list includes a hero that have always strikes first for no particular reason except that he is skilled. I am starting to regret that now as I can see how much discussion this can lead to (however, the hero is not imba as he is forbidden to buy any magic weapons, he must have 2nd hand weapon and shield (he can change between them in combat as he wish))

One more thing... someone here who is a warhammer pro player, maybe you could give me your e-mail so I could send you the army lists, they really need someone proffesional to have a look at them (I already have sent a friend request to Gav Thorpe on facebook, but he hasn't answered yet.) Maybe someone would bother to convert them into version 7?