Always Strike First - New HE Changes the Face of WH?

[Squig69]

Hi folks

Well a friend of mine has purchased the new HE book and we sat down and had a look at the new rules with fear and trepidation.

We'd both heard the web rumours about the "Always Strike First" rule but didn't believe it.

Boy were we wrong! ;o

The funnist thing was that the book referred us back to the Core Book for the rules about Always Strike First.

I'll be honest, I'd never even noticed the inclusion of these rules in the CB as I don't think any army actually benefits from them (barring the odd magical item). I certainly never have had cause to look up these rules when talking about normal troops/special or even rare choices.

But now it's here and remarkably few comments have been made concerning this rule that pretty much shakes up the entire concept of the game.

Maneuvering your troops around the table to position them for a charge against the enemy in order to gain the said bonuses with that charge is the standard of every game of Warhammer I've been part of.

Now the new HE have shaken up that standard in dramatic style.

To say that new tactics will be needed to defeat a HE army is understating the change this has made to the game.

Always. Strike. First.

No way around it, no twinky way to kill a character model and deny the ability, no way to charge the enemy in the flank and avoid it.

Now some of the heavily armoured Armies may well be shrugging there collective shoulders and saying "So what? Their poxy Str 3 will bounce off our T4 and 3+ Sv."

But for the rest.......well life just got a lot more interesting.

I could list the effects this is going to have on the game but I thought it would be interesting to get everyones take on the new situation.

When a new army comes out the knee-jerk reaction is for everyone to say "Oh no, now no one can beat army X, we're all doomed."

So, please, don't post "I hate High Elves cuz they suck."

Regards

The Squigster ;Y

[Malkieth]

I can understand your concerns about the new High Elves and now they always strike first. This isn't the best thing however if you have a charcter who also has this ability and a higher I then the Elves then you strike first anyway.

With the release of the new Army Book I have watched a fair few games in which High Elves are still getting beaten. Just because they strike first doesn't mean that much if they are still only S3 and T3... it gives them a bit more survivability but they are still quite fragile.

The trick to beating them is to still charge them, but you want to charge them in their flanks... because of unit high points cost they won't be running bid units so they won't have as many attacks on their flanks. if you cahrge anything in the flank then it doesn't matter if they strike first. The only thing which bothers me about the new list is the change in the organisation of the army so that they can have more specials and rares.

However this always works against them as well as their troops are pricey and most armies can easily outnumber them... I am curious though how you see that people are disadvantaged by this....

When you look at the armies out there... things like the empire who aren't the best espenstially WS3 BS3 S3 T3 etc... however they have the war machines that will cut through ranks of High Elves and they are that one army that really struggles when they start losing troops...

You will find that each army will have a way in which to defeat them as each armies strengths are augmented by weaknesses... lets face it High Elves really have been a walk over army for a long time and they have finally got some rules to make them a tougher opposition.

And it is important to still charge them... especially their calvary as that way they won't get strength bonuses etc... it will just involve more tactics and planning and in the end they are still S3 & T3 and generally lightly armoured so they are still going to struggle... its the sword masters and white lions that you need to avoid.

So in the end I think that there is not much to really worry about execpt those swordmasters and white lions... but you won't see too many big units of them. So there is nothing to really fear. I just feel sorry for them that they can only take 1 bolt thrower per rare choice instead of the old 2.

[Rork]

It's similar to the 40k release of Eldar. Being able to take jetbikes as troop choices represents a 'sea change' in 40k - it punishes some of the 'classical' power builds that rely on being able to sit there and shoot the enemy for long enough.

ASF represents much the same thing. HE elite units can now take on high damage, low rank units (i.e. cavalry) that would have destroyed them in the past. The 'received wisdom' that cavalry is king will change slightly in the face of this - static combat res (ranks, numbers) and flanking will become much more important as a result.

Ploughing straight through the middle will only work for the most powerful cavalry units like Grail Knights and Chosen Knights. People fret not because "my army can't beat it" but really because "my army build can't beat it".

Welcome to a brave new world :happy:.

[Triumph Of Man]

Bike heavy armies have been around for ages, Rork. Ravenwing, Siam Hann, and Trait Marines for example.

I'm still on the fence on this issue personally. I can't see it being horrible for the spear elves, fair enough they should strike first with their long stabby implements against a charging enemy. But a Sword Master armed with a great weapon getting his hit in ahead of a Knight with a 10 foot lance? Just how the hell did he manage that short of flinging his sword at the knight? I can't see that happening, for me it borders on the utterly ridiculous.

"He's been practicing a lot." Well I'm sorry that just doesn't cut it for me, nothing short of magic IMO is gonna let him get around that lance.

[Rork]

Originally Posted by Triumph Of Man

Bike heavy armies have been around for ages, Rork. Ravenwing, Siam Hann, and Trait Marines for example.

Indeed. But the original incarnation of saim hann and ravenwing were either full of vypers or incredibly small with little in the way of options. With the new Eldar codex bikes were neither as expensive or crippled by the lack of heavy support - their use became viable across the board, not just in specific circumstances. The same goes for Elven infantry: before now people maxed out on cavalry with High Elves and just looked wistfully at the infantry, now there's a genuine reason to take it over cavalry.

"He's been practicing a lot." Well I'm sorry that just doesn't cut it for me, nothing short of magic IMO is gonna let him get around that lance.

You mean like being a High Elf? :rofl

[Cyric the Mad]

Originally Posted by Rork

Welcome to a brave new world :happy:.

As ever, Rork finds the right way to say things. Hats off to you, sir.

Originally Posted by Triumph Of Man

But a Sword Master armed with a great weapon getting his hit in ahead of a Knight with a 10 foot lance? Just how the hell did he manage that short of flinging his sword at the knight? I can't see that happening, for me it borders on the utterly ridiculous.

It doesn't make sense because you don't want it to make sense, I think. What's to say that said Swordmaster didn't simply dodge or deflect said clumsy (by Elfy standards) human lance? Doesn't seem too far fetched, since Swordmasters are renowned for their grace even with such massive weapons. Or if you want to get truly Elfy about it, maybe the Elf sprinted up the lance (Legolas-style) to attack the knight. I think the idea is that Elves won't simply stand there and wait for you to hit them - they'll find a way to hit you first.

Things that are a stretch of the mind to figure out always make the best stories anyway. Since all of this takes place in a fictional environment, what's wrong with taking a few creative liberties for it to "make sense"?

As for ASF changing the face of the game, I've had this discussion with many people on both sides of the issue, and my conclusion is this: Get over it. The folks out there complaining about how "ASF changes a fundamental principle of Warhammer" seem a lot like ranting crazy people carrying picket signs with the High Elf Army Book cover on them chanting "The End is Nigh!"

I know this will shock a few of you, so brace yourself: Rork is right. Most players of WFB and 40K are guilty of settling into a rhythm with their lists - finding the particular powergaming combination of units, characters, and gear that makes our army the best we can conceive it to be. In the end, lists start to become homogenized. This mentality is well-illustrated in some of the responses you will receive if you post your army list for feedback and the feedback sounds less like "this is how you make your list better" and more like "this is how you make your list into my list".

The new High Elf book does a bit to change this for WFB. Suddenly fast armies can no longer lean on the crutch of certainty that they can pull off the charge. And suddenly small eite units can no longer count on scoring enough kills on the charge to ensure victory. In short, we have to change our tactics, both in list-building, and in how we play the game. While this shakes us from our comfort zone a bit, I don't see that as a bad thing.

I'll reiterate a point that Rork made because it bears repeating: The doomsaying about how broken the new High Elves are is nothing more than mass-lamentation for the death of preconceived notions. Those who thought they had the game all figured out have just been thrown a curve ball. Rest comfortably, though. Your old list and old tactics still work against 94% of the armies out there.

Conversely, we need to understand that the reason most of us have been observing a lot of High Elf losses is "New Book Syndrome" and nothing more. As soon as the skilled players out there figure the list and tactics out, it will be an army to be reckoned with - the truest definition of an Elfy force: few, but deadly. However, maybe instead of getting down about how the introduction of this element to the game throws a cog into the works we should focus a bit more on the fun it could bring with it.

Doing that sounds like a lot more fun to me. Sounds like a game.

[Canuck]

It sounds like a challenge to me!

Now instead of using your old tactics and lists everyone is going to need to find out how to beat the high elves. Every army will be able to beat them we might just need to find a new and different tactic.

Instead of complaining everyone should be in their homes or wherever trying to come up with a new way to defeat the elves.

Good luck!
Canuck

[CaptainSarathai]

Okay, I use woodelves, empire, brettonian, vampire counts, and yes HIGH ELVES. And I can tell you, i bought and used the book the day it came out- there are ways to kill us.

1) our best toughness is 3. actually, all of our models are T4

2) our strongest attack is a White Lion with a greatweapon. He hits at s6. The highest S characteristic is 4.

3) we have NO shooting. Our 100pt RBTs are the only thing we have that can scratch anyone. face it- our archers are still terribly overpriced.

4) all those quirks that we get, come at a high price. we are always outnumbered.

5) for any of our troops units, the minimum unit size might as well be 20.

6) the only cavalry unit that is worth taking is 30pts per model

7) our best cavalry also has our best save- a 2+. All of our infantry has a 5+ save, even our elites.

How do you win?

1) shoot us. shoot us alot. T3 is actually easily harmed with a longbow, and a 5+ save isn't going to do much for us.

2) give yourself a wider front, so you have troops left over to strike back on the charge. or take spears, so that when we kill the front rank during normal combat, you still get attacks.

3) charge- you still want to charge. ASF doesn't negate charge bonuses. Cavalry will still hurt us if used properly

4) make bigger units. We have VERY small units, except our spears.

5) flank us. like they said already, we don't have enough units to cover our flanks unless we form a phalanx.

6) aim for Combat resolution. always take a banner, always fill up the ranks, be aware of unit strength.

6) you either have ALOT of unskilled troops, who will be able to mob up and employ the tactics above, or you have elite troops, who will be able to ride us down. Perhaps you'll have to follow a mix of the two.

The ASF rule is a nice thing for us, but it doesn't hurt too much. We're used to striking first- we used to have I5 and our M5 or M9 meant we usually charged. The trick is that you can no longer rely on KILLS to win the day. You have to break us down and get us to flee.

That's all that i have to say about this. Now you know you can kill us, so stop complaining that it's going to be impossible now that we get S3 T3 Sv5+ 9pt attacks before you get any.

[Nachtjager]

Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai

1) shoot us. shoot us alot. T3 is actually easily harmed with a longbow, and a 5+ save isn't going to do much for us.

This is liable to be my approach. When talking to a games workshop guy in store he was talking about how supreme swordsmasters were. To which I responded that it would take a tactical idiot to allow these close combat loonies to get into combat in the first place, any general with shooting units and half a brain stem will be very likely to focus a lot of fire to mow through swordsmasters, from my dwarven armys perspective theyre practically free victory points with their low toughness and near non existant (by dwarven standards) armour save.

For me its the white lions with the lion cloaks and the pheonix guards with the ward saves that worry my dwarves, not some ponces with oversized butter knives, soon to be turned into lanky crossbow bolt pinions.

Its not going to change my tactics much, but as Squig69 pointed out, I'm one of the lucky ones with the good shooting, high toughness and high armour. All that may happen is to replace one unit of warriors with another squad of ironbreakers, so that at least i have the same WS as the non elite elves on my front line.

[Sir Theobold the Lame]

A lot of good points being made here- and it seems like the majority of WHFB players arent too concerned about this rule change. In fluff terms it makes a lot of sense, and as has been pointed out, the high points values of a High Elf does even out the bonuses of ASF somewhat.

When you assess this rule change alongside otherrecent armybooks- Dwarfs and Empire for example, and the bonuses those armies have garnered then its quite justified IMO