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I play 40K, but don't play fantasy, though I read many of the books and almost started.
Currently I'm feeling a bit irritated with some of the popular 40K armies that are based on letting every/most of the models be things that were previously restricted. Specifically nidzilla and drop pod armies. I feel like they force me away from a bunch of unit types and such that I enjoyed previously, and feel like I'm almost being forced to play my Eldar mechanized.
So I tried a proxy mech Eldar list, but the other guy turned out to be playing Dark Eldar. So now I feel like the bad guy because his raider/wych based army is pretty much an autoloss against mech Eldar. Course I think it'd also just lose against drop pod marines as well.
Anyway my impression from afar is that fantasy doesn't suffer from this so much. You still have to build a good list of course. But you can use, well, bunches of weak infantry. You don't have to worry about the other guys list being composed of nothing but dragons or whatever. And even if you did run into a list like that the different combat resolution rules would still give the infantry a shot.
The point of this being that it seems GW knows how to balance things so you can field a wide variety of armies capable of taking all comers. They even started 40k out largely that way, with the FOC restrictions and the like. But in recent years they seem to be choosing not to do so and a couple army types are seriously reducing the options of other armies.
EDIT: Just to be clear I'm not saying that drop marines or nidzilla are overpowered. Simply that the need to beat them cuts large swaths of otherwise good and fun units out of other armies options.
Id have to yes, that is a fairly accurate assumption. I played 40k for many years and whilst i quit before droppods and nidzilla armies were implemented, i understand what youre feeling.
Fantasy is a very different game. Many people refer to 40k as Warhammer Light but i dont think this is fair . 40k is alot of fun. but its very different from fantasy. Fantasy has alot more emphasis on tactics, instead of just raw strategy. Its alot more precise, and specific in its rules. Not only would be nigh impossible to field an army of dragons, but it would also probably be a bad idea if you could. The game relies very heavily on strategic use of your own weaknesses instead of in 40k where it relies heavily on understanding and strategically using your strengths. There are many many many different options for army lists for each race. Everyone can find something they like. I personally like high elves, it took me awhile before i settled on them, but they alot of fun. fantasy has something for everyone, and if youre a 40k vet getting a little bored of the army building limitations(or lack there of) i would definately give fantasy a try
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I played WHF for 6 years before I got in to 40k. I love 40k, but I have a really strong passion for Fantasy. They are totally 2 different games, and if you feel like 40k isn't enough for you then it is time to upgrade to the "real" test of any General. Fantasy awaits...
I have to say i agree with all of the above. Especially the original post. As well as the apparant streamlining of rules in the game, and the way certain armies, specifically marines, seem to be favoured, this is how GW have managed to ruin 40K for me.
Now, i pretty much only play fantasy, and have done for two years or more. I find fantasy to be a far more enjoyable and rewarding game. There is so much more diversity within it, and the fact it is more tactical means you need to be thinking a lot more, constantly adapting to the situation. i.e as stated above, if a unit of gobling manage to take out your dragon, then you best rething your strategy fast! The probability, yet occasional unpredictibility, makes it a better game by far imho.
Last edited by Phoenix; December 1st, 2007 at 15:28.
Well, in short, yes.
That said, I still play 40k as I find it generally more enjoyable. I won't deny that Fantasy is probably a better system but at the same time, I find that it only becomes "listhammer" or Warhammer Lite (I really hate these terms) at the highest levels of competition as this is when it becomes all about winning and maximising your strengths. Many of the lists you cited - Nidzilla, Drop Pod Marines, Mechanised Eldar - are among the most frustrating lists to face in any given game and I would generally just refuse to play against them. In an ideal world, you'd want to fight against people who take fairly balanced, all-comers lists that don't try to abuse game mechanics (this can't really be said of Drop Pods but still...) and are fairly fluffy in nature or just cool. Then it's a joy to play against people. 40k has tactics, but not the numerical bonuses to make them obvious. 40k requires skill, but sadly, skillful use/abuse of game mechanics can cause army lists to become a skill multiplier.
I'm sorry to see you leave for greener pastures, but I hope you'll come back some day. Plus it makes me sad when you have a whole thread just knocking 40k with no one stepping in to defend it. Will no one think of the underdog?
(Disclaimer: This post is considered to have the following qualifiers - , , )
Basically in any game there will be people who will put an army that either massacres or is massacred onto the table. Fantsy is more tactical but 40K can be amazing fun if you don't care whether you win or lose. A fluffy army has a fun and or characterful theme but so do drop marines and such. An army can be built upon a gimmick and still be very sucessful (my army of disc riding sorcerors and chariots was designed to be fun but incapable of winning, win it did. Repeatedly.) it is possible to just throw caution into the wind and have more fun losing than the winner has (my Khorne army vs a tournament ready ork army; I was wiped out but lost more of my troops from exploding buggies up close than from ork attacks!).
Just go out to have a good laugh, don't take it too seriously and choose your oponente well and it'll all be good.
The one thing I don't like about Fantasy is that it seems a little too complex and a little too relient on a deeper, more focused understanding of its game mechanics. 40K is more "accessible" (perhaps that's a problem some have with it) and as such its rules are designed to be very open, easily-understandable, simple and quick. Fantasy rules on the other hand involve very deep intellectual commitments and as such Fantasy seems a lot less appealing because I know that if I ever did try it, besides the fact that it would cost a lot more, I'd lose probably my first 20 games. And lose badly. And probably get pissed off and quit several times. And then spend even more money. And so on and so forth.
It's not better or worse, but it is different, a different sort of game for a different sort of experience, maybe for different sorts of Players.
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As others have stated, you always have the option of simply not playing against those lists, but me personally, I'd choose a different approach.
I hate doing it, but I'm going to start off with the assumption that there's probably only a couple of guys in your club/ store/ whatever that use Drop Pods or Nidzilla. Assuming this is true, just tailor a list to smoke them. After you crush them a few times, they'll probably change their lists up a bit to be a little more diverse and you're back to fielding the stuff you actually want to play with. Both of those types of one-trick pony armies fall into the category of scissors, paper, rock. You just need to figure out what in your army acts as the scissors to their paper.
It isn't real sporting, but if you're that serious about not playing 40k anymore...
The other thing I'd suggest is going WYSIWYG. Is the drop pod guy using coke bottles or some other lame-o model to represent his drop pods? Is the 'nid player proxying his carnifex models? Do what I do and tell them you have a hard time keeping everything straight and ask to play WYSIWYG only games from now on. You'd be amazed how few painted drop pod armies there really are out there compared to how many you read about in people's forum posts.
All that being said, sounds like you could use some new opponents. Try playing in a different store, or if it's an option, maybe even a different town. It's amazing how a group of gamers can either ruin or completely enrich the hobby for you. I "played" for about two years before I found a couple of regular opponents who I really enjoy playing games with. I went from playing once every couple of months to two or three times a month largely because I really dig the people I play with now. Even though it takes me an hour to get to the store I'm playing at now and the same hour drive back, it's totally worth it.
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