Cheesiness - is it REALLY so bad? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Member Jürgen Mutant's Avatar
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    Cheesiness - is it REALLY so bad?

    To play to win. Not by cheating, but by using the rules to one's full advantage; this is what I mean by cheesiness in this thread. You might call it beardiness or powergaming.

    Whatever you call it, it's widely condemned by Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 players - I don't know about other games.

    But is this condemnation really fair?

    I mean, look at all other types of games.

    Can you imagine a Chess player going, "All right, if I let the king move ahead of my pawn, I'll win the game... But that would be agains the fluff, so, no."

    Or a Poker player, Bridge player, Backgammon player, No player or Risk player playing with a strategy leading to anything but victory?

    One should play for fun, one might say. And I couldn't agree more. But isn't trying to come up with the best tactics a great part of the fun?

    One could also say that it's important to be a good sport. Which is also my opinion. But being cheesy doesn't have anything to do with being a bad sport. If anything, isn't it bad sportsmanship to get grumpy just because your opponent was smarter?

    Just a few thoughts.

    Last edited by Jürgen Mutant; October 26th, 2008 at 20:20.
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  3. #2
    gone fishin' avatar of khaine's Avatar
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    you're missing the important difference between strategy and list-building.

    If someone was to play an excellent strategy, that's fine...

    But just making a list that no matter what tactics are used against it, is not...

    Basically, you're saying good tactics is fair... which it is, but ridiculous lists are not.
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    Member Jürgen Mutant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by avatar of khaine View Post
    you're missing the important difference between strategy and list-building.

    If someone was to play an excellent strategy, that's fine...

    But just making a list that no matter what tactics are used against it, is not...

    Basically, you're saying good tactics is fair... which it is, but ridiculous lists are not.
    Ok. So as long as your list isn't cheesy, any kind of play is generally thought of as acceptable?
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  5. #4
    King of Librarium's Tombs Phoenix's Avatar
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    The idea in Chess (and similar games) is to win, simple as. There is no reliance on luck such as with dice rolls, so youll never get a pawn standing up to a Queen as you could get a Goblin holding off a Giant in warhammer!

    Good list making sability is a great thing (points to Gingerninja) but can mean the army can be a complete shambles in the hands of a bad general (again, Ginger lol)

    Conversely, you can use a Cheesy list (the equivalent of using a ''Net Deck'' for anyone who plays Magic:tG?) and be the worst general in the world, yet still win with ease.

    Using cheesy / powergamerish lists takes a LOT of the fun out of the game, as well as meaning you dont actually learn much, and people wont like playing you so eventually youll run out of opponants.. and then be forced to go play at tournements

    At said tourneys, youll find that all of a sudden, your powergamer lists fail when facing either more powerful lists, or better generals, or both!

    So yeah, if youre playing to win, go ahead, but it surely cant be a very rewarding game. If you want to learn and have fun, then play balanced games. Then once you have the experiance and ability, make a great list, hit a tourney with it and beat down the noobs who took the easy option

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    Murder omgitsduane's Avatar
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    Some of my best games are the super close ones that I end up losing because I want that intensity of not knowing what could happen.

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    The Alchemist Izzinatah's Avatar
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    In chess, both sides are exactly the same. In warhammer, the sides are different and there are certain combinations of 'pieces' that are harder to beat than others.

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    Member Jürgen Mutant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    The idea in Chess (and similar games) is to win, simple as. There is no reliance on luck such as with dice rolls, so youll never get a pawn standing up to a Queen as you could get a Goblin holding off a Giant in warhammer!
    Cardgames have great reliance on luck, but they're all about winning to!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Good list making sability is a great thing (points to Gingerninja) but can mean the army can be a complete shambles in the hands of a bad general (again, Ginger lol)

    Conversely, you can use a Cheesy list (the equivalent of using a ''Net Deck'' for anyone who plays Magic:tG?) and be the worst general in the world, yet still win with ease.

    Using cheesy / powergamerish lists takes a LOT of the fun out of the game, as well as meaning you dont actually learn much, and people wont like playing you so eventually youll run out of opponants.. and then be forced to go play at tournements
    At said tourneys, youll find that all of a sudden, your powergamer lists fail when facing either more powerful lists, or better generals, or both!
    So yeah, if youre playing to win, go ahead, but it surely cant be a very rewarding game. If you want to learn and have fun, then play balanced games. Then once you have the experiance and ability, make a great list, hit a tourney with it and beat down the noobs who took the easy option
    Your last sentence is more or less what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about noobs ripping lists off the internet, pwning their noob buddies, and not learning anything in the process. I'm talking about experienced games, always trying to evolve their gaming skills to attain that extra edge over their equally experienced gaming partners, of which listmaking is a part.
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    King of Librarium's Tombs Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jürgen Mutant View Post
    I'm talking about experienced games, always trying to evolve their gaming skills to attain that extra edge over their equally experienced gaming partners, of which listmaking is a part.
    That is completely fine Just note that there is a massive difference between evolving and tuning skills and lists, and just going ''hmm.. this guardian army doesnt work, lets just replace them with a load of pimped eldar vehicles and be done with it''.

    (A good player would look at the Guardians, find why they dont work, and using them as a base, create an army around them which works well)

  10. #9
    Chilli Fueled Heretic danjones87's Avatar
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    The concept of 'cheeseyness' is different to each person I meet. Min maxing and disregard for fluff are to that come up often.

    What eveyone must remember is the most important rule in warhammer and, really, in all games we play, and thats to make sure everyone is having fun. If you play a friend and beat them every game they are going to be disheartened by it.

    So, if your friends are fine playing your soooped up army every so often thats fine, just dont go down your local store and beat strangers and laugh at them because youre so much better.

    Well. Enjoy.

    Dan

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    Junior Member Googletron's Avatar
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    I think that my big problem with cheese, has not to do with competiveness as much as it does with the suspension of disbelief. I play this game and my imagination is right there on the battlefield.

    When someone's list is illogical, has unit combinations that make little or no sense in a fictional setting, or when the Kroxigors are moonwalking at the Casket (though fun to watch) it really kills that imagery. There is a reason I play these games, if I wasn't seeking an aesthetic element, I could just play chess.

    I guess my issue isn't so much with unbeatable lists, as much as someone popping my fantasy bubble with their mathhammer list.

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