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I have a general question on the 40k universe: do you think that the whole dark 41st millenium has become fluffy and cute? Chaos seems to be given less and less emphasis, the whole war for humanity seems to become more and more a heroic butchery and Space Marines have smaller and smaller heads with every edition. I don't know what about you people, but I miss the Orwellian-Black-Humour-Nightmare-Empire where humans are turned into servitors for not paying taxes (that was said in 1st edition), where even Space Marines are brain-cleansed after fighting Chaos, where Chaos armies look like nightmares of Hyeronimus Bosch and where the horrors that lie beneath and behind the Imperium justify the worst attrocities committed by the Emperor's fanatics. I miss this moral madness.
Nowadays it looks to me more like an enlightened absolutist monarchy with a sentiment for George Lucas. What are your opinions?
I have got every edition of 40k from the 1st to 5th and i can't agree with your statements. First i have no idea what you mean by marines having smaller heads.
Do you mean on the models? or the fluff?
And the fluff in the 1st edition was no darker than the 5th thats just people looking at the past with rose tinted glasses. In the very begining of 40k it was Humans Vs Orks Vs Elder. No nids, necrons, tau even chaos wasn't the big bad it's meant to be.
5th edition is all about the end of times (not the end of 40k or g.w) but the theme of the game is that this is the end, the human race will wither out and the xenos will rule in their place. Whats not dark about that?
I AM BOOMER!
Rogue traitor was full of different races, they just dint have allot of fluff until white dwarf would do a spread on them, later to be compiled in the compendiums.
The only two races that did not "exist" were Tau and Necrons, and we lost the squats.
I think the space marines are getting more of a darker feel and this is distorting the difference of chaos and loyalist. True Chaos back in the day were some pretty whacked out guys, but in all honesty it would take you most of a day to roll up mutations and generate an army list to use. Nowadays it’s all about streamlining and playing.
I am not looking at the past with rose tinted glasses. What I mean is that the concept of 40k changed with every edition, it matured a little bit but not enough for my taste. Many of the changes were necessary and good (no more 1980s fashion in 40k, thank you Emperor). Yet I have the strange feeling something is lacking or was lost in the process. Perhaps it was the lack of political correctness that appealed to me, or the black humour which is lacking today. It's too serious and too childish at the same time. The universe is on the brink of destruction since many years. Doom and gloom. And nothing ever happens.
And with smaller heads I mean the modern artwork for Space Marines.
I kind of agree with you in that Chaos has become less chaotic and more evil villianesque (as opposed to primeval amoral insanity).
I know what you mean by Marines having smaller heads...look at the art work for Pedro Kantor, the one where he isn't wearing a helmet.....
I think in a way it is the opposite of what you are saying.
Back in the day you had a host of races that fought against each other but were also 'civilised' and might occasionally ally with each other, Imperium, Squats and Eldar primarily.
Now everybody is out to kill everybody else. What this means is that there is no 'moral scale' and so the reader has less empathy for the different races and is less horrified by the 'evil' ones.
Also way to many Doomsday-scenario bad guys...Necrons, Tyranids, Chaos with the dark horse Orks as well.
I think the background was better when it more focused on the enemy within imperial society rather than the enemy without (this applies both to Chaos and Genestealer infestation)
Last edited by Visitor Q; March 13th, 2009 at 14:01.
"God is dead" Nietzsche- 1886
"Nietzsche is dead" God- 1900
Why are there scams? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q71FLDIMBc8
now i don't want to make this like a trip down memory lane.. i can save my rants about how 2nd ed rules should be brought back etc etc.
However, i somewhat agree and disagree with you. I get the impression that its a question of ballance throughout the races currently played.
I was taking a look at my old circa 1996 Codex Chaos the other day and i see that the stats that a lot of the Chaos daemons have fitted their fluff very well. If you have it.. look at the Bloodthirster.. its awsome in 2nd ed.. and rightly so.. its supposed to be the single most powerful (playable) entity in the entire universe..
Compared to that and the fluff used to describe them, they are somewhat nerfed in later editions. And there is probably good reason for that.
The thing that REALLY REALLY REALLY gets on my nerves is when fluff from codex / rules editions has been lifted (coppied and pasted) and then used to describe something that really doesn't happen.
You can't say the same about Bloodthirsters in 5th ed, as they are a shadow of their former selves. The worst offender for a cut and paste job between codex's is the description for Pink Horrors. Why go to all the effort of telling people that they split into blue horrors when that doesn't happen. they even go as far as to add an asterisk to ammend their own fluff in the printed codex. why wasn't this completely re-written.
Why GW can't update, ammend and revise their printed rules like they used to in the old days is a mystery to me. As far as i was concerned, thats what White Dwarf was for.. now its just a glorified marketing tool.
On the other hand.. some of the things that you originally talk about do sort of still happen to some degree within the 40K universe.
The apocalypse formation for Grey Knights will essentially turn on their Space Marine allies if all Chaos has been defeated.. essentially wiping the evidence from existence.
I have fast come to the conclusion that there should be two sets of rules for 40K.. Standard and Advanced.. very much like other RPG's that are around. Vet Players who want the horrendous complexity of what earlier rule editions provided can have this and make the game as dark and forboding as possible.. but if you just want a quick fun game then you can.
Seems like a missed opportunity to me
Current Army Status - Chaos - 15000 points, Orks (BadMoonz) - 3000 Points - Space Wolves - 4000 Points, Necrons - 2000 Points.
If we look at Black Library books then Chaos is certainly as blackly evil as it ever was. In actual 40k, however, I think GW is simply discontinuing a lot of the fluff, the Horus Heresy in particular. I'm not sure what their plan is but 40k fluff is quite stagnant these days.
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
Their plan is to sell models.
Back then we had the Cold War. The world really did seem to be coming to an end. People were less worried about the little things at home, and more worried about whether or not the rest of the world would blow us up.
Then the nineties hit, and the whole world went soft. Just look at music. N'Sync and Backstreet, and all the poppy little BoyBands would've been beaten to death on stage by a couple of prepubescent Alice Cooper fans. The nineties changed our outlook- the world was peaceful again, life was looking up. We started looking inwards and we came up with the concept of anti-depressants, ADHD, and all types of total 'crap'.
We had Columbine, we had 'Video Game Violence', we had people cracking down on Explicit Lyrics. Parents became more concerned in their kids lives. People started to mellow out. The rock-and-roll, satanist, sex-and-violence fueled era of the 80's youth was gone. They all grew up and popped out babies and wanted to change that- and it was probably for the better.
GW is a business, it's trying to sell models. Timmy and Tommy's mommy and daddy aren't going to buy him an army that is full of nearly naked, drugged-up, hyper-violent, sex-fiends, just because Slaaneshy Chaos has some cool rules. Chances are good that they won't let him play the game at all, because nobody wants to see their kid exposed to that.
GW started simplifying the rules, so that a wider and wider age group could play the games, and therefore buy the products.
They have to compete with anime, and Halo and all the colorful, flashy video games. Look at the Tau- a proxy for Gundam and Japanese Mecha. The best display of GW at it's greatest is the difference beteween WAR and WoW. WoW looks like a Pokemon cartoon with all the bright colors and fanciful armor and cute little tiger pets and stuff. WAR looks like DOOM, with the washed out dark colors and the realistic weapons and armor. GW still has it's edge, but society doesn't.
Finally, I think that a lot of the problem is that you're all older. If you actually REMEMBER the 80's, chances are good that you were a lot younger. More stuff seemed "bad ass" to you back then when you were a kid. Now, you could probably read the same thing and not be phased. It's a changing time, and a changing culture. I'm sorry guys, but GW is gonna have to change somehow. Just, the day we are over-run with SMURFs and Tau 12year olds in my local shop, is the day that I'm gonna blare some Slayer and burn the place to the ground.
[disclaimer- i'm a child of the 90's. But God how i hate us]
I agree with every word you say.
It is a very good thing that the 80s ended - some of the pictures and models were... horrible warped nightmare visions which should have been censored by the Inquisition (anybody remember these two gay guardsmen in these leather punk jackets from rouge trader...? Please give me a mindscrub).
Yet... I think I know now what pains me - the lack of consistency with the development of 40k. This world is great and amazing and so much more could have been done with it. People had to wait many YEARS until someone at GW decided to bring out an RPG book for this universe (a real beauty)... only for it to be removed and for some dark reason sold to fantasy flight games. The fluff changed with every edition but the world has not been pushed forward. Since 10 years I am a GM for a huge RPG campaign in 40k. And with every year I have less and less stuff comming out of GW that I can use for it. Doesn't that tell something? And adding races and new model ranges does not help.
Perhaps the problem lies with the death of White Dwarf - it was always THE motor for creativity in GW. Or maybe GW should first create a special comission (or forum) that would clean the fluff and bring out something like one universal list of things that are in the fluff and will not change, like an 'Encyclopaedia Psychotica'. Otherwise we will play a differently flavoured universe every time socio-economic trends change. The whole 'business' thing starts to give mean headache...
And just to make it clear. Captain, we are being overrun by Chaos Smurfs and Anime Space Marines and Mangy Eldar, so you can already start blaring some Slayer.
Blood for the Bloodgod!!!