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Is anyone here (new players in particular) Tired of the older players whining how the game sucks now that the rules have changed and made their old tactics obsolete? We were either unaware or unable to play Warhammer in their "golden age" as these older players see it. When I first tried to do Eldar, this was after 5th came out. I was told by other Eldar players not to do it because they suck, for the mere reason defensive weapons are weaker. Oh boo hoo, you cant move and shoot like you use to, if you are any good at the game you can adapt and find a new way to play the game. I was also called a foll for taking Eldar tanks, and since then Ive beaten SM my first game with Mech Eldar.
I got the same reaction for 5th in general, high Elves when people thought they were cheese after their update, and WoC for mixing units that in the last edition would nto ally because of their gods' oppostion. Now It is perfectly ok in the rules and fluff now to do these things. Yet I have actually had people say Im a jerk and taking advantage of broken rules and misuse of fluff. This all goes back to when i wanted to get into 40k but these older players said for me not to. They actually told me not to spend my money on what I want. Being disapointed because of a fluff change is one thing, but to say that someone shouldn't do that because its again old fluff which is now no longer cannon, thats just plain rude. Let the person play the way they want and let them have fun.
If a Million Guardsmen die, that's a statistic. If one marine dies, that's a tragedy.
One of the best things about being an old player is complaining how good we had it!
Everyone does it and you will too!
I would never actually stop someone playing the way they liked but I do encourage anyone to stick to the established fluff within reason.
For example Memnoch follows the Gods numbers in his marine army.
Nurgle squads are 7 men
Khorne squads are 8
There is no in game reason or bonus to this, but the Dark Gods know that it is the correct way and will favour him!
I would never, ever bring a tactical squad of anything but 10 men, in fact all my squads except terminators and command squad are 10 men. I stick to the rigid demands of the codex Astartes, ensure each squad has a combat squad leader (with iron halo icon), and that everyone has regulation markings where possible.
I hope such things will make the Emperor look favourably on me.
Arch Overfiend & Grand Despot
I currently play:
Doom Eagle Space Marines
Hive Fleet Omega Tyranids
Goff Ork Boyz(dead)
Tau of O'me
Inquisitorial Xeno Hunters
and my attempted foray into fantasy
'Dark Angel Green' Dark Elves in need of fluff
The problems i have aren't with the game (mainly as i dont play anymore ), but just with the way GW are going about their revamping.
4th ed eldar were filthy - broken. I dont know how bad they are now.. but i can only assume they have been powered down a bit by the new rules? Although their vehicles can still be upgraded beyond stupidity.
Personally i dont care how tournememt viable an army is, if its going to ruin the competitiveness of a friendly game without any effort from the player then its badly designed...
..which is the issue i have with (Teclis) High Elves (which i have faced) and Daemons, and going back a bit, (Thorek) Gun Line.
The DE and VC books look good, ive heard some people say theyre broken but if anything DE got balanced and VC may have got some improvements, but i dont think theyre any more breakable than the old VCs (i recall one filthy Strigoi list inparticular).
If the rumours for the new BoC list prove true then thats a huge disappointment. GW have put in little effort over a long period of time, into an army with so much potential.
The thing that really gets me however is what GW have done to Chaos, in both fantasy and 40K. All the fluff, gone... that was a huge blow to the armies and the game.
I've been told of for using multi gods with my daemon army and quite frankly, i don't care what they say.
Just because they can't win doesn't give them an excuse to critize my army.
Rules are rules.
I do obey the numbers though.
My mono nurgle army
has 7 units, all are 7 or 14 men strong. 49 models over all.
Themed armies are more fun, but ideally it all comes down to you. No where in the rules does it state I can't mix gods, but fluff specifically says some gods dislike each other.
Rules > Fluff.
And verterans that enjoyed the old game more can talk about it as much as they want. Unless they get a delorean and build themselves a time machine...but why bother.
Please remember that its not your army being criticised, its the army book as designed by GW. I have no idea what your army is.. but the army books i have seen, as well as the tourney result lists
Rules is rules... is written by a handful of people focussed on $_$ and not on the game. Admittedly a time machine is a bit too much effort, when its far simpler just to get hold of the old rulebook and army books and just use them. What is stopping people?
Well its one of those things isn't it the dynamic between background and rules.
Personally I think the most fun games are ones which are completly based around the background right down to inventing special army lists and scenarios and then playing the game itself pretty competitively.
It all comes down to what you want from the game. If your opponent is someone who only picks an army because he loves the models and has a great paint scheme while you have a unpainted army designed around trashing your opponent can you be really said to have won?
The two people have different goals so the idea of true competition because a farce.
I think the real complaints from older players is that sometimes the rules are simply bizarre and not as fun as previous editions and to much towards pandering to tourney play rather than just having a casual war game.
The Paradox of course is the more you try and steer the game towards a regulated balanced game that tries to limit 'Cheese' the more you will frustrate yourself because the ethos of the game will be that 'Tourney Competitive' lists are the Real lists while scenario based lists are just for 'Fun' (Fun of course replacing the word Silly in this context).
By way of example people always cite RAW on rules forums. Strictly speaking using RAW 'The Most Important Rule' is that the rules don't matter all that much.
Last edited by Visitor Q; March 31st, 2009 at 17:22.
"God is dead" Nietzsche- 1886
"Nietzsche is dead" God- 1900
Why are there scams? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q71FLDIMBc8
For fun, i'd allow using an old dex. A more important game? no chance
But on topic;
If the veterans don't like the new rules it's their problems. The "good ol' days" might be over for them but they're still here and playing!
As a new player myself, and a player of daemons, I get a lot of complaints about being one of the causes in ruining their "good ol' days."
Countless people whom I play against will spend the whole game complaining about how over powered breath of chaos is or how bloodletters should be twice the point cost.
Not much we can do but enjoy the game!
In third edition my tau walked uphill both ways in the snow while facing off against a Space Marine gunline, back when Ultramarines were called Vanilla, and you didn't need true line of sight since damn it, just because that wall has a window in it letting you catch a good look at someone's hand doesn't mean that hand couldn't pull down a curtain, not that you ground hugging, fleet wannabe gamers know what a curtain would be, you and your venetian blinds, and auto tinting windows, and your organic cereal bars, and your skype, and your smart cars, and your Free Tibet, and your World of Warhammer Whatsit, and your cordless mouses, and your gasoline engines, and your powered flight, and your typewrites, and your new fangled steam engine...
Pixie's got a point in there somewhere, just let me find it....
oh- here it is: older generations will always complain the things that they didn't have, or the things that have been lost over the generations.
Older players are complaining because either
A) they lost their broken list which they used in tournaments, or their army fell out of favor and another army has become even more "broken" than theirs was
in an attempt to balance the game for tournaments, the game has lost a lot of the uniqueness that drew people to it. it used to be about the fluff and about the story. the tournaments were a side-show.
C) in order to increase sales and stay current with the "give-me-now" generation, the game has been simplified more and more. This leads to both a dulling of the rules, and also a dulling of the fluff applied to the rules. Where once we played a detailed game where a Space Marine was one of the Emperor's Finest, now we're playing a generalized game, where a Space Marine is only a few statistics better than the Ork barbarian that he's fighting against.
And don't grumble about the grumblers. We still play the game, and that's putting money into the system so that the game will keep running so that eventually you can sit on your stool licking cheetos-crumbs off your fingers, telling some young kid a third your age that the game is so much worse off then than it was now. Might it be wrong to tell him that? yes. But are you only trying to perhaps enlighten him as to what you used to find compelling in the game? hopefully.
See? we don't do it because we're mean old farts. We do it because we love ya... stupid youngbloods.
ps: don't think i'm 48 or anything. I'm only 19, but i've been playing over half of my natural life.