4-letter Words "powergaming/fluff" - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
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    I've asked about htis before, b ut noever really got naything to definitive. Now I am posting htis in reponse to a growing number of posts and refernces made here, and at the several places I go to play 40k...The words ,"Powergaming" ,and "Un-Fluffy". These annoy the hell out of me, Powergaming? *****?! Is it that big a deaklf or someone to have a VERY strong army? So what if I lose, or you lose? Unless there's money on it? And FLUFF...please. Fluffwise One Space Marine, or Choas SPace Marine cuold take out the majority of a firewarrior squad and pretty much anythign else..so keep the Fluffastuff to a minimum..I mean...Lots of good opinions here, though I have to gripe again ont he use of the word "powergaming". Words liek that and people who use them don't do much for the game. FOr the love of the Emperor man! REALLY! Anyone who would whine about how "Cheesy" and 'Cheap" a deathwing army is has NEVER played one. They are HARD to win with. ONE troop dies your out 50Pts. And as for 'Powergaming" In general? Get over it, someone throws together a REALLY good/cheap, list and paints and buys it, well hell yeah their gonna play it! Just because osmeone doesn't go with the "norm" and try to include everything to "duh-Blance" their army out doesn't make them less a fan or entrepaneur of the game. We all have our preferences, Some of us liek Assault stuff, some like shooty-ness, or lots of armor. SO why for the sake of the Imperium am I gonna Include lots of armor in my footsloggers? To 'Balance" it out for my opponenet? HA! Yeah right, do you see many black templars players including JUST Bolter squads, or heavy weapons squads? Or how about Blood Angels? See themg oping easy on assault troops to stay "balanced"? The Balance is in the points cost and the Stragey and rules people. Thus far in my ENTIRE time of playing Warhammer40k I have seen and played JUST ONE army that is nigh on unbeatable. I won't list it here, but it got
    -36 str6 Ap2 Range 36"- Shots a turn with the ability to re-roll misses. YEAH that I can say is nigh on unbeatable,UNTIL the game where my Terminators toasted them, and held them upf or my Army to get in position on them. So even THAT was beatable. DO you think GW made up Deathwing for no one to use it? DO you think that all the Eldar Craftworlds are Cheesy and cheap? Did the BLood Angels,Black Templars,Space Wolves get tehir nifty assault rules JUST to sellt hose armies and unbalance the game? Oh, and did the Salamanders get the Cheaper Termies to create more of them? The answer to all these is still...a resounding NO! The DIversity of creating your army lists and playing with oh so many different and divergent lists and styles is SO THAT all Creeds and Tastes may be wholeheartedly accounted for.

    Ona side note all you "fluffmongers", I see all the cry baby stuff int he world about not "Playign FLuffy,by the Spirit of the game,Your armies Character", when The Terminators, and THe Grey Knights come out. But let me ask you this?

    -DO you CHaos players ever Make your Daemon prince Easier to kill for the sake of 'Balance'?
    -DO you Eldar players leave off using your Psker Reroll everyhting powers for the sake of "balance'?
    -DO you Wolf,Templar,Blood players ever give the IG,Tau,DE time to shoot you a few times BEFORE you charge inf or the sake of 'Balance'?
    -DO you Daemonhunters ever make your grandmaster LESS than godly against chaos Players for the sake of 'Balance'?
    -DO ANY of you out there Buy,Payfor,assemble and Paint troops and models that you REALLY don't want as much as those OTHER models sot ghat your army retains it's 'Balance'?

    And last but not least, for an analogy...If any of you were in a gunfight with someone else..and they decided to wear Bright Orange Clothes, Some hadphones to jam to while your trying to shoot each other and you managed to sneak up on him...are you going to let him know so he can 'balance' the playign field?

    Do any of you AT ALL< remind you opponenet that they forgot to move/shoot/assault int heir turn for a wella nd truly BALANCED play experience, or do you capitilise ont he others weakness?

    I think My point is made.

    -Semper Fidelus Imperitoris


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  3. #2
    Senior Member Squirrel's Avatar
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    Is it fun to win without a real challenge or is it fun if you have a fair game? Posts like this are poor excuses for cheese, and honestly, the game&#39;s just not as fun if you decide to powergame. Is there such a thing as cheese? Yes. Are there people who whine too much? YES. But that doesn&#39;t mean that you should abuse the rules. There&#39;s a thing called "sportsmanship." There&#39;s a thing called "HONOR." There&#39;s a thing called "not bringing people who play your army a bad name." Maybe you&#39;re completely alien to these things. All I can say is the game is more fun if neither player is obsessed with winning. No, BT should NOT take all bolter squads -- it&#39;s not fluffy. Just because the game isn&#39;t TOTALLY in line with the fluff doesn&#39;t mean you shouldn&#39;t try to make it that way. Points costs don&#39;t necessarily balance -- ask anyone which is better -- a Land Raider or a Monolith -- they&#39;ll probably say Monolith. Now which costs more? The LR. GW MAKES MISTAKES. FACE IT. There&#39;s a difference between staying balanced and playing to lose. GMs are supposed to be godlike -- making them so is not powergaming. DPs are supposed to be hard to kill -- making them so is not powergaming. Assaulting ASAP is what the mentioned armies are supposed to do -- that&#39;s not powergaming. Using the rules that are meant to be used is not powergaming. You give examples of stupidity and say people think that&#39;s balanced -- newsflash buddy, they DON&#39;T. You&#39;re confusing idiocy with fairness, and thus, all your examples are entirely invalid. What IS cheesy is taking nine Obliterators and not enough troops. Troops are the core of any army -- IT&#39;S A *****ING FACT. You&#39;re entitled to your opinion, but you&#39;re still a powergamer who obviously feels the need to overcompensate for something.


    EDIT: As for missed phases, if I&#39;m playing against a new player I WILL remind them, because I want to give them a fighting chance, because winning against someone who doesn&#39;t know the rules means NOTHING. For you, maybe, a win is win, because you NEED to win, no matter what (~cough~OVERCOMPENSATING~cough~). But maybe you need to realize that winning does not equal fun if you don&#39;t do it with honor.
    OMFG1337&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;111one

  4. #3
    Favored of Tzeentch Viktor's Avatar
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    Can anyone give me a readable version of the uppest post... :/
    Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
    Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks

  5. #4
    Cousin It Carnage's Avatar
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    nothing is unbeatable...but the best armies, and the most fun armies are ones that play like they act in the fluff...

    the game is about fun...not winning

    the sooner people realise that the better...sure i wanna win everygame i go into, but i don fall down and cry when i lose, then go make a list that is a complete ***** to beat that the blood angels wouldn&#39;t ever fight like...

    wheres the fun there?
    Never judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes...by that time they'll be a mile away, and have no shoes

  6. #5
    Senior Member PrOtOcoN's Avatar
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    Squirrel said it nicely, but I want to add.

    Take me as an example. I know I&#39;ll have to play against...hmm...let&#39;s say Marines. So I think it over and I fill my hvy. support choices, drop fast attack alltogether and make something resembling a neo-vanilla IW army.

    What?

    I thought I was Night Lords? Why did I pick them if I was just going to do something like that?
    Sticking to army fluff makes for a better game...why? "Ooooh look, here comes the squad that makes no sense and annihilates me....wow that was impressive *cough*NOT*cough*"
    Isn&#39;t it better like this ---&#62; "Wow, here comes the squad that makes sense fluffwise and still it kicked my ass...man...I really did get beat."

    Fluff and a sense of sportsmanship are just two extra rules in the game to make it abit more challenging. They&#39;re unwritten rules, granted, but rules nonetheless. Like not playing against unpainted armies, that&#39;s a rule I have. I absolutely deny playing against an unpainted army. I went through the trouble (and orgasmic joy) of painting my troops, you do the same.

    If we should just stop thinking about sportsmanship and fluff...why not just do away with some of the rules as well since they make the game abit harder? Why not just drop the rules alltogether and just have an old fashioned fist fight?

    Well...I for one prefer the super fluffy sportsmanship games of painted Warhammer battles...but hey, whatever floats your boat.

    Your fluffraping hurts my eyes. - TehDarkPredator

  7. #6
    Senior Member The Real Leman Russ's Avatar
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    An example of a beardy game:

    my army of sw was playing bt and to cut a long story short i got whupped.

    1000pts, both have to be balanced

    sw
    hq
    1 wolf lord
    1 wolf gaurd battle leader
    trops
    2x9 grey hunters
    9 blood claws and a rhino
    heavy
    3 longfangs


    total: 32 models and a vehicle

    bt

    hq
    1 emporers champion
    elites
    9 terminators
    troops
    2x5 initates
    fastattack
    land speeder
    heavy
    land raider crusader

    total: 20 models and 2 veicles.

    now which was the beardier?
    Children in the dark cause accidents, accidents in the dark cause childen.

  8. #7
    Pathfinder Edicius's Avatar
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    I kinda agree with Faust on this one.If you don&#39;t like the other guy&#39;s army,don&#39;t play him,it&#39;s that simple.The only time anybody ever complains about somebody&#39;s list being beardy or cheap is after they&#39;ve lost.Never once have I seen somebody bring it up during or before a game,when there&#39;s still a chance they will win.I have willingly played and lost against "cheesy" armies like Deathwing and lost.It&#39;s not because he cheated or anything,I simply didn&#39;t have the right kind of troops to deal with all those terminators.If i lose,I lose,oh well.As long as a list meets the requirements and doesn&#39;t go above the points limit go ahead and field whatever you want,it&#39;s your army.

    On the fluff issue I personaly think it&#39;s important to work it in as much as possible.It makes things more fun to have it fit with the fluff or if it forms a story,but then again that&#39;s just me,I guess some people don&#39;t think fluff is that important.

  9. #8
    Senior Member slicer's Avatar
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    I agree with Faust and Edicus aswel, but I also agree with squirrel at the same time, :unsure: I like and try to stick by fluff in al my army list and if someone doesnt then Im not going to complain, s/he has still paid the points for this character/wargear and I have instead paid points for more units, seems perfectly fair to me.

    But if someone purposefully tries to find loop holes (or makes up loopholes) in the game and tries to exploit this fact, that I consider to be cheesy/powergamer-ish/beardy/whatever. Its even worse when they try to do it to new people to the game aswel, gets me annoyed, especially some of the stories Ive heard on here.
    <img src='http://muchos.co.uk/members/slicer/sig_slicer2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

  10. #9
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    -DO you CHaos players ever Make your Daemon prince Easier to kill for the sake of &#39;Balance&#39;?
    -DO you Eldar players leave off using your Psker Reroll everyhting powers for the sake of "balance&#39;?
    -DO you Wolf,Templar,Blood players ever give the IG,Tau,DE time to shoot you a few times BEFORE you charge inf or the sake of &#39;Balance&#39;?
    -DO you Daemonhunters ever make your grandmaster LESS than godly against chaos Players for the sake of &#39;Balance&#39;?
    -DO ANY of you out there Buy,Payfor,assemble and Paint troops and models that you REALLY don&#39;t want as much as those OTHER models sot ghat your army retains it&#39;s &#39;Balance&#39;?
    Most people are not bothered about single cases.
    1) A Daemon prince is meant to be powerful.
    2) Eldar are good psykers, so it is realistic.
    3) How would this be balance? That would be stupidity. Points have been paid for assault ability.Why would you take an assault unit if you didn&#39;t use it?
    4) As apparantely everyone has super Daemon princes is taking a Godly Grandmaster not keeping balance? Grandmasters are meant to be Godly against Chaos anyway.
    5)Yes, I don&#39;t really want as many Gaunts as I have in my Tyranid army, but 2x8 Gaunts, 2 Hive Tyrants, 3 Carnifexes would not be reasonable.

    Is it that big a deaklf or someone to have a VERY strong army?
    So it is completely fair if my army has been completely destroyed by lascannons and battlecannons when there is NOTHING I can do about? (I did use terrain)

    I have no problems with Deathwing, just people being intentionally abusive.

    Someone using an all bolter templar army would not be making it balanced, they would be unbalancing the game (against them self).

    You don&#39;t seem to have a good idea of what balance is, you say you don&#39;t see people not using an ability there army has but you fail to say why that makes it unbalanced, how is a blood angel squad using its abilities unbalanced?

    Do any of you AT ALL< remind you opponenet that they forgot to move/shoot/assault int heir turn for a wella nd truly BALANCED play experience, or do you capitilise ont he others weakness?
    Always. If I beat someone because of that then I feel that I have not really won.

    You make it sound like anyone using anything other than normal troops is making it unbalanced, yet the game was designed for multiple units and varying weapon combinations.

    You really need to re think your argument, re typing it would be an even better idea.

  11. #10
    Professional Lurker sithjack's Avatar
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    Powergaming and unfluffiness are two rather difficult subjects to discuss because everyone has a different definition of what they are. In my opinion powergaming is when someone is so obsessed with winning that they do everything they can to put the odds in their favor.

    For example: Bill is on a winning streak with his Kroot, his arch-rival Tom challenges him to a game the next day, because he knows Tom&#39;s army will be geared for takin out kroot he brings his Armoured Company, without telling Tom he won&#39;t be playing kroot and sits by a table with very little terrain. As a result Bill easily wins the game, gets cursed out by Tom (before during and after the game) who would have had more fun listening to Hilary Duff and watching Barney, and is universally avoided due to his unsportsmanship. As a result Bill gets on his favorite forum and starts a topic about how people only say someone is a powergamer because they&#39;re bad loses.

    This is why powergamers and powergaming are hated as well as why forums are clogged up with topics about how their is no such thing as cheese or powergaming. As a side note bad losers and losing powergamers are hated as well.

    DO ANY of you out there Buy,Pay for,assemble and Paint troops and models that you REALLY don&#39;t want as much as those OTHER models so that your army retains its &#39;Balance&#39;?
    Most people do this as much as we may like Landraiders, Battlesuits, or Monoliths there comes a time when we must face the fact that our favorite unit does not a winning army make

    Do any of you AT ALL< remind you opponenet that they forgot to move/shoot/assault int heir turn for a wella nd truly BALANCED play experience, or do you capitilise ont he others weakness?
    I usually dont say anything because I don&#39;t know if they are doing that on purpose as part of a plan, no sense letting my opponent know I can&#39;t see the trap he aid for me.
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