WHFB An interesting topic that came up in our LGC.. Playing with just bases?

[Sir Theobold the Lame]

Well, first of all warhammer is a miniatures game. As has been stated before there are many good wargames and board games that use counters, and are in fact played on maps- in fact why not just buy some OS maps and invent your own game?

As a curious aside the 3rd edition rulebook (and indeed Warhammer siege) came with paper counters to cut out and use with the scenarios, but they were only meant as a stop gap before buying proper miniatures.

[Liffrea]

If it's just to get started then fair enough but if it's a general can't be arsed then I wouldn't personally entertain him on this. Sure perhaps he can't afford the figures, there are times when I haven't been able to, so I leave the hobby until I can afford to take it up again. I wouldn't dream of making it a long term practise, it would spoil it for others, sort of like having one man in a rugby team who can't be bothered to train or buy the correct kit.

[kithre]

What do people think about playing with only bases and not actual figures ?

I can't afford figures and have absolutely no interest in painting them. I'm currently carting around a borrowed bread tray of dark elves (Thanks Mark) without the correct models, occasionally without any figure with the correct base size, and reckon an envelope of bases would be far easier to work with.

I haven't found any rules yet that bases only would not work with, although I'm new to this game (and any wargaming).

would you guys reject my army; be happy to play; laugh me out of the club ?

I would love to have ahobby driving a Ferrari at Silverstone, would be a great thing to do - I don;t have the cash spare to buy a Ferrari, unless I decided to become homeless, anc can't afford the insurance to drive at a race track in my Fiesta, so I don't....

However, I would go to a dealership to test drive one if I was a serious punter.....

In the same light - paper counters etc are all well and good for a couple of trial games, to test out new units, as long as there is an intent to buy models at some point. I would even sell my older models to a mem,ber of a gaming group in such dire straits. But remember that the enjoyment of ALL players is impaired if we didn't play with mdoels, it would feel false and I certainly wouldn't play more than a couple of games like this against the guy. I had the same situation at school - and I went to private school where most people were well-enough off to afford models etc, one guy refused to outlay (20 years ago) on the models and as a result we just didn't play his "paper counters".

If the counters were of sufficient standard and quality - 3-d, nice pictures etc, it would make it more palatable, but still not really a substitute...

Do you ever insist on having the correct models for the units you're fielding and of so, when ?

As an example, the rulebook says IIRC that when a character's monstrous mount is killed the character may fight on on foot, if you have a model of the character on foot. This implies that if I play Malekith The Witch King in my Dark Elf army and he's on a Black Dragon, when the Black Dragon is killed Malekith is dead if I haven't purchased the Malekith model, on foot on a 20mm square base. How do you play this rule ?

If you have Beastlord Rakarth on Bracchus, I would allow that model to count as Malekith, similalry Malekith on foot could be proxied by a Dark Elf hero...

As long as there were no other Executioners or Black Guard in the army, I would allow Blakc Guard to count as Executioners, or something similar - many High Elves players treat their Silver Helms as Dragon Princes proxies

I hope this isn't sacrilege but I'm interested in the game not the hobby. I have little appreciation for the models and am positively annoyed by the impracticalities that the models introduce into the game. So far, I reckon the game could be fascinating once I'm up to speed but when trying to get 40 scaven to sit on a tray together and their weapons all interfere with each other, that's just a pain. Moving units of figures through woodland is just hell if you're trying to measure acurately, which to me is pretty vital for a fair battle.

The game would be improved by playing on a map surface with counters for troops.

Wrong hobby - teh game is mechincally not very good UNLESS you are playing model's eye view (and there are rightly said better game systems out there for counters and maps) - sounds like this guy is bandwaggoining, without researchinmg what else it out on teh market - he is interested in a miniatures game but doesn't want the miniatures, ergo he should look for a game without miniatures - maybe he can be introduced to Battle for Armageddon or Horus Heresy?

PS How much easier would it be to judge your arc of sight if your square counter had a 45 degree line on it rather than a Black Orc without a single straight line on it and a huge axe over that corner of the base so you can't even see the corner when you look from directly above ?

That's not the point - any good gamer can get round this easily enough with a piece of card cut at 45 degrees, but part of teh fun is estimating ranges, guessing charge arcs
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Originally Posted by Sir Theobold the Lame

Well, first of all warhammer is a miniatures game. As has been stated before there are many good wargames and board games that use counters, and are in fact played on maps- in fact why not just buy some OS maps and invent your own game?

As a curious aside the 3rd edition rulebook (and indeed Warhammer siege) came with paper counters to cut out and use with the scenarios, but they were only meant as a stop gap before buying proper miniatures.

Yep I have the counters still intact - a Wood Elf army and an O&G army, but those counters nspired me to buy the "Elven cavalry" £15 bundle which were my first models...(£15 for 10 cavalry models - those were the days!)

And 4th edition came with carboard cut-outs for the monsters and war engines as well

[panzer-attack]

To be honest, the advantage Warhammer has over other systems is the whole eye candy nature of it. Everything looks so good and a big part of the fun is sprucing up your miniatures and scenery so that everything looks cool.

Like someone else said, if he's not interested in that side of the hobby he's probably better of looking at some token based war games.

[Zema]

Originally Posted by Riptor

If the answer to both of these is No, and the player is planning on permanantly just using empty bases with the unit name written on, I would try to avoid playing them, however if they are just trying the game/army/unit out, and/or plan on buying the models at some point soon, then I would not mind.

Agreed, the game, to me, isn't about measuring and distances in the first place, it's about little armies of plastic war dollies "battling" it out.

The game would be improved by playing on a map surface with counters for troops.

That's not what warhammer gaming is about! If you want that, go find another game, i say. And if that is how you wanna lpay it, fair beans, but i ain't gonna play you.

[niko]

If you really can't afford to play otherwise, I don't see any problem with playing with bases/paper clippings/what not. As long as your opponent is ok with it I don't see why not. Especially if you're a fun opponent to play against.

I'm sure many gamers would be willing to loan their secondary armies when playing against fun enthusiasts who don't have money for their own minis.

Playing in "events" where you have e.g. an entrance fee is different, there you'd have to loan an army from a friend and play like it were your own...

[panzer-attack]

I might be being too cynical here but when I hear someone say they can't afford to get an army what I think they actually mean is they can't afford to instantly get a huge army to play with without spending any time building it up. Unless a person really is financially destitute everyone should be able to afford an army as long as they're patient and they build it up over time. If someone was gradually building up a force for themselves I would have no problem playing against them whilst they used proxies (empty bases, toy soldiers, whatever) for the units they hadn't got around to buying yet.

If someone wanted to permanently play Warhammer with plastic bases then no, I don't realistically think I would play against them. I'm not being fascist or anything, I just don't honestly find that prospect very appealing.

[Gedderz]

I wouldn't play against an army of bases, whats the point? Might as well go play tiddly winks insted (ok bit far off) but the game, nay the hobby is about minitures not just bases. Besides the confusion it would cause. If you cant afford the models then try finding good deals on ebay or something other wise well sorry you cant play. About painting i would have no problem playing unpainted figgures although having 2 nicely painted armies is a very good thing for a game.

[InquisitorAffe]

Just doesn't make sense to me. Warhammer isn't really a particularly good 'game.' It's a tolerable system for playing games with minis. If you're not into the hobby part of it, check out some FFG games or something.

[Ooglatjama]

Play videogames if you want to just play a game. also he shouldn't get into this game if he doesn't have the money. This is like fixing up expensive cars, it is a hobby for those who can afford it.