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Alright guys, I've been playing GW games for a decade now. I have Battlefleets for BFG, I have 5 or more Fantasy Armies, even some LoTR minis, Inquisitor materials, and finally; about 4000pts of Space Marines. The trouble is, those Marines have been collecting dust for nearly 3 years. I'm asking you guys to tell me what I need to do to get more enjoyment out of my 40k experience.
When I got into 40k I tried for a combined-arms route. My dad is military, and I was pretty much brought up to become an officer myself. I thought that having mutually supportive fields of fire, several flexible tactical squads, armored support, and basically realistic tactics, would win the day for me. Then I ran into the fact that frankly: Close Combat rules the day. I came to the realization that mutually supportive squads of tactical marines is just not going to work- I either got CCed to death, or shot to death by gunlines. My interest waned.
Then they released Codex: Cityfight, and I got back into the game. With the buildings and the density, it turned into a game where I could set up Fields of Fire again, and really fight like the USMC are trained to. Close Combat still made a difference in the game, but it made more sense in the close confines of a city, and it was less of an impact because it took so long to cross the cities. Then came Cities of Death, then came the --ing 'Run' rule, the new SM Dex (which messed up my DiY army) and my interest waned again.
I love Fantasy, because it's a more tactical game. I love how you actually have to turn your units (yes I know, 360degree reaction, but even on modern bfs you're only 'fighting' in one direction), and the way that the rules are so detailed. 40k just seems like a "dumbed down" game to me. I still love the models for 40k though, and there are even some armies that I'd like to give a try, like Imperial Guard. But I'm still leery of this stupid "Run" rule, the emphasis on chainsaws 38,000yrs into the future, and the dumbed-down game mechanics in general.
So, can you guys tell me how to play 40k with 5th edition (because yes, I know RT was better)? I want to be able to enjoy my marines again, and maybe even convert that cool IG army. But I'm sick of losing to 12-year-old kids with a bunch of Genestealers and Claw-Gaunts and the ability to be eating face in less than 2 turns. Planetstrike? Apocalypse? CoD? What am I doing wrong?!
just play the ones that you enjoy and keep painting the awesome on the others
I am building an enormous expensive andmighty guard army and I have never played a game of 40k in my life-- I just enjoy guard and the paintjobs therein
marines are too cool to pass up as well on painting options and conversion options---- I dont play anyone period, but I enjoy all the nerdy aspects of the game without the hassle!
Why, when you could get into Warmachine? (and lose to 12 yaer old kids with 30 Bane Knights)
Ok Capt. Here are my 2 cents worth, for what its worth :-p
I agree with you wholeheartedly that 40k is a dumbed down version of its former self. GW did it on purpose to get those 12 year olds to buy 500.00 worth of plastic models. It worked and now we have to deal with them. However GW is mending their mistake and slowly building the tactical back into the game. I have a few suggestions that may help you to better enjoy the game.
#1 If you are able, buy every codex for 40k that you can find. You being of a military mind will understand more than most the phrase "Know thy enemy" The more you know about an army the better you will be able to combat it.
#2 Give yourself a morale boost. IF you are getting stomped by the 12 year olds with the cheese Tyranid build, design your marines to combat them exclusively and whomp the shyte out of the little wiener. Take a poopload of small arms fire, rapid fire shots, assault cannons, etc. Sit back as far as you can on your table edge and make green goo out of them.
#3 If you are intent on playing marines, invent your own chapter. Make them personalized to your fighting style. Make them your army. I know it sounds geeky, but make a whole back-story for your chapter. Name your officers and if they do well in a battle, promote them, etc ,etc.
#4 Try new, exotic, plain weird builds. Go off the wall and make an army with nothing but tactical squads. Spend some cash and make an armored company. If you are having trouble with losing to cheese, at least make it fun.
#5 If you dont already, read Tacticas here on LO. I know that you already possess a very tactical mind from your previous post, but it never hurts to get another prospective.
#6 If all else fails, try another army. Go for the opposite side of the spectrum. Build an orcs and goblin army, a bug army, an eldar army. ( I personally LOVE eldar.) I too, as you have, got tired of playing 10 year old kids that could only win by playing cheddar, so I bought armies till I found one that fit my style. I went thru necrons, to tyranids, to space marines, to orc and goblins and finally rested on Eldar. ( Luckily I had a friend that changed armies more than I change underwear and he, unlike myself, sold his armies when he tired of them... so I got great deals and mucho models.)
All in all, you need to find what it is about the game that makes it fun for you. Try new things. Win with grace. (but talk just enough shyte to make yourself feel good :-p)
I sincerely hope that you find joy in this game, I know that I do. I'm a gamer geek until I stop breathing, and love nothing more that helping someone else find the geeky joy that I do.
Play fair, Play with grace, and stomp cheese into the ground.
In service to fair play,
Last edited by OgreTyrant; September 3rd, 2009 at 05:02.
Armies to date:
2500 Ogre Kingdoms
2500 Tomb Kings
1500 Space MArines
I found this topic pretty interesting, as i find myself in the exact same spot as you Captain. I started in 3rd edition, but before that I played fantasy, so i have a few fantasy armies, and over the years I have made a few 40k armies.
I find the tactics in 40k all go into making a list, since if you have a crappy list while your playing you won't be able to do much with it, since there are no actual tactics in game to think of which can save you. Close combat units run into combat, shooting units shoot, all there is to think about is the best route for a close combat unit to take to make best use of cover and reduce shots coming at them, and which unit is the biggest threat that your shooting units should shoot at.
Unlike fantasy there are ways to ignore certain powerful units, such as using smaller units to redirect them away from the main battle line, or to get them to over run into terrain so they are bogged down in it for another turn or two. In 40k there is no way I can avoid 20 berzerkers of khorn, or an orc warboss on bike with his nob buddies who have feel no pain. your only option is to pour all your firepower into the unit and hope you role well enough, or hope he has terrible rolls when he gets into combat with one of your combat units.
I find whenever I watch a game of 40k, and one of the guys has a shooting list, they always set up terrain the exact same, this way they have a large building to deploy all there troops in for cover, and just shoot back and forth, or wait till there assaulted, and combat armies pretty much just line up and run at each other. '
With a game of such simple rules there is no way to fix it or make it fun unless you completely change the game around, introduce rules that make taking a shooting force viable, like have bonuses to shooting units who are not facing you, and have units have a facing, and take away this stupid run rule, as it only makes close combat armies better at what they do, and makes shooting armies completely worthless. The biggest thing is to stop this stupid codex creep, which makes every new army far superior than the last army that came out, giving them brand new toys and abilities which ruin the game, and then finding ways in the next codex to balance these rules. Like cover saves, they are crazy, you pretty much always get a 4+ cover save no matter what, so what do they do, they introduce all these new weapons which ignore cover, completely stupid.
Anyways, enough of my rant, I to would actually like to get back into this game, because I do like the look of the models and everything, but with the rules as they are i don't see myself doing it, but i guess you guys could try and convince me to to play this game.
I recommend adopting 4E rules for determining LOS, shooting (excepting vehicle damage tables) and missions. That does a good job of patching up 5E's weaknesses. It makes it possible to hide units again, allows more mission variety, and makes infantry shooting useful once again (other than melta-spam tank hunters).
Aside from house rules, I don't know what to say. We all know how the conversion possibilities have dried up and the fluff is regressing. Even I have begun to look at alternative, sci-fi miniatures games. Haven't found anything yet, but only inertia is keeping me in 40k.
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
40k dumbed down? Fantasy more tactical? What games are you guys playing?
I used to like Fantasy a lot, but then I saw it for what it was, power checkers. Everything moves the same direction and it's just a matter of hopping the right pieces. Boooring. Best way to win checkers is to not play checkers, with lots of skirmishers, shooting, magic, and units that ignore traditional blockhammer.
If you think 40k is just about the list, you have a very poor grasp of the game. Having a good list is an important factor, but learning how the game works, how your army operates within the rules, and how to defeat your opponent is much more important. As you learn how to play, learning to build a strong list comes with it.
And honestly, if you expect a game about 8ft super soldiers, magic space elves and sentient fungus to behave like the real world, you must be nuts.
What specifically is giving you problems? Is it building an army? Where have you found deficiencies? Is it the game mechanics themselves? What is difficult to grasp? Are you being hampered by arbitrary self-imposed restrictions (this isn't how it works in real life, this is "cheesy")?
I'd be more than glad to help you, as I know how much fun a real challenging game of 40k between two good players can be, and I hope you get to experience it as well.
Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com
From the sounds of it, what you dont like about 40k is the game fundamentals, and no matter how hard we try and convince you to get back into 40k those same fundamentals will keep driving you back to fantasy. My advice would actually be to take a step in the other direction and go for necromunda, which is arguably the most tactical game GW has ever released, and where weapons can really set down lethal fire arcs. In games of a dozen or so models a side the humble heavy bolter can really become a quite formidable weapon.
Ask me about the Black and White Space Marine on the Black and White Bike!!!
I think the Fantasy ruleset is superior to the 40k, but power creep amongst the army books has just wrung all the enjoyment out of the system for me- round about the time I was losing the the fifth person to take the same "dual-hydra, black dragon with the unkillable S6 elf on top and a certain 25pt item which made my considerable point investment in magic useless" list against me.
The thing that made me stick to the idea of 40k and carry on collecting models when I'd stopped playing was the Black Library- I'm a glutton for background and the 40k universe has it in spades. Everytime I get into a fresh series it inspires me to sit down and plan out a cool themed army- I'm currently trying to resist going out and buying an Ultramarines force.
Turns out I love the Ultramarines, I just hated Uriel Ventris
Yeah- I don't like "run", it took away from the uniqueness of my Dark Eldar. I just had to suck it up and console myself by drinking the tears of the victims of my now rediculous Horrorfexes.
I agre that run is no fun.
My solution- play bigger games. The larger the game, the more varied things get. Apoc is a lot of fun and brings in some more complex elements to the game, such as strategems. The larger the game, the more variety in choices you have in committing forces, coordinating assaults/fire, etc.