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Hi guys. I've recently been involved in a little debate on Gav Thrope's blog with another user about the recent changes in codex chaos. Gav had explained to the world exactly why he made the changes to the new chaos codex, and the result had been a torrent of abuse about broken rules. I'm not qualified to comment on that, I don't play chaos marines, but the part I got involved with was someone's argument that it had rendered a whole army unusable because it removed all the rules they needed (Iron Warriors).
This I could comment on, I reasoned that you could still use them, it just needs a little imagination. He worried that he could not use his Iron warrior lord with a servo arm because the option had gone. Well I'd say, call it a power fist?? As examples of what I meant I gave Lord borak, Boomer, Protius and Inquisitor Earl. I wanted to copy and paste the debate here, partly to see if people agree with me and partly to acknowledge the inspiration the work of these imaginative modelers along with all the other LO modelers should give.Bryan Younts
I have to say, the point you make of wanting to make a Codex that lets the player make a Chaos army free of restrictions from sublists was the purpose of the codex. That is a fact. However, by removing and changing certain options that the sublists and the main Codex had, you restricted me from taking quite a few things.
This is an excerpt from the E-mail I sent GW Customer Service when the Codex came out, where I list the models I own I can’t use in a tournament game or against anybody who wants me to use the Codex with no fan made modifications because of the changes in wargear and weapons options.
“I personally cannot legally use over $300 of my Chaos models in the new version of the army list. This isn’t including the cost of tools, paint, or the countless bits I’ve bought to convert most of these models. And as I go through my collection to work on projects and organize things, I regularly find something else I can’t use now. Here’s several examples.
A.. $112.50 worth of Juggernauts that I used to mount a Khorne Lord and his Chosen Retinue. No Retinue in the list and no mounts for Chosen makes this unit no longer legal.
B. $17.00 for my Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons Lords who have weapon combinations that the new Lord/Sorcerer entry don’t cover. The IW has a specially converted servo arm harness (which has no rules) and daemon weapon, the TS has a lightning claw (which I would use as a force weapon…) and combi-weapon (which, however, sorcerers can’t have). My two favorite characters are now useless.
C. $20.00 for Night Lords Lord on Bike with Melta Gun faring that is no longer available as an option for a bike.
D. $40.00 box of Chaos Hounds that I split up to make pets for various characters, that they can’t have now.
E. $60.00 in Chaos Bikers with Bike faring mounted plasm guns and melta guns that aren’t an option anymore.
F. $45.00 Chaos Dreadnought with Havoc launcer. Even though the Dreadnought was the first model to ever be able to mount that option, it no longer can.
G. $20.00 worth of Thousand Sons converted to be used as a retinue for the now useless lord above. Half are sorcerer champs, so they are not useable as Chosen anymore.
H. $33.75 worth of Thousand Sons mounted on Disks as Retinue for a Lord mounted on a Disk.
I. $30.00 Rhino mounting both a pintle mount combi-bolter and havoc rack, making it an illegal combination of upgrades (despite the fact that the Iron Warriors Land Raider in the codex’s painted section has this combo).
J. $40.00 Iron Warriors Basilisk with Forgeworld Upgrade kit and converted Necromunda Pit Slave Crew.
K. $20.00 worth of Servo arm wielding Aspiring Champions that now have no rules.
L. A box of Grey Knights in Power Armor that I converted to be a retinue for the above IW Lord. Since the Chosen can’t have a combi weapon and a power weapon at the same time, not even the champion, they can’t be fielded as a unit.
M. Two Noise Marine/Emperor’s Children Lords equipped with Doom Sirens they can’t have anymore.”
So while you set out to make an army list that did not restrict us from collecting what we wanted to, you did stop me from using a sizable part of my collection. That’s not opinion, that’s fact.
So what did the Chaos Codex accomplish? It made me quit going to tournaments, something I and my friends (all CSM players) loved. It made me build my first Imperial army in the 20 years I’ve been in the hobby (an Ultramarine army, replete with piles of interesting options). It made me choose not to buy the Codex. I wrote an army list for my Iron Warriors units using a copy a friend loaned me. Since I know the stats of all the models and weapons and don’t have any interesting or complex options that I need to refer to every game, I don’t actually need the book to play a game with them. They are the only CSMs I play with now.
I do agree with the point you made about we the players having the right to ignore the restrictions of the books and make up our own rules. You can point to the release of the Dark Angels and CSM Codices for the moment my friends and I made that decision. I just wish that more players would reach that conclusion and that GW would do a better job of showcasing that part of the hobby. Too many of my good friends who I’ve played great games with have quit the hobby because the latest Codex made their carefully converted, well painted, and interesting army unplayable. The Chaos Codex almost made me do that, but I decided I enjoy the hobby too much to let one ill-executed rulebook end something that’s been so much fun for me over the years.
Counts As! Everything on your list could be used as something else with a little imagination. Got a gun on a model you can’t use, find the closest viable alternative and use that. Juggernaught unit? Counts as allied bloodcrushers? Counts as summoned greater daemon? Counts as chaos Terminators? Counts as something out of an Imperial Armour book. There are always options.
My deamon princes are orion with wings, a dragon ogre painted red and the Be’Lakor model.
As long as people aren’t fooled into thinking something represents something it does not, and you are upfront I’m sure even most tournaments would allow it, and any friendly gamer worth their salt would.
Even if you can’t justify something to yourself, you are obviously a good modeler, so make a slight conversion.T
That’s not at all exaggerated is it?
Everything in that list can be used to represent something. Not that using all of that is legal in a single list, so you must have $4000 of useful troops to complement these extreme cases.Matus
@T I understand what you mean, perhaps I went a bit OTT, but my point still stands. Let me give you some examples.
First the heretic list form the first 'Siege of Vraks' book. At its core it is the old IG codex, but the writers obvu=iusoly sat down and decided what every different option could count as. There was no room for conscripts in their army, but they needed a place for a workers rabble. A quick swap of names and fluff and you have adapted the army yo use their converted models and background with no effect on the balance of the army. They did the same with heretics and imperial guardsmen. They didn't bemoan the lack of the old lost and dammed list to base theirs on, they adapted the IG list.
Games workshop practically encourage it now. Don't want to use Sicarus but like the rules, think up a new name, make a new model, as long as the rules are understandable then go for it. Look at this conversion for Iron Hand Stracken.
The Iron Colonel - Finished. - Librarium Online
Stracken doesn't have a thunder hammer, there are no rules for giving him one, but in this case it represents his high strength and armour piercing ability. Look at his command squad.
Guard Command Squad - Librarium Online
They have shields because they look so damn cool. There are no rules for shields, so they count as the peel no pain rule the medic would give them.
I'd like to give some other examples form my home forum of Librarium online. First is the work of a member called Protius. He has created a renegade adpetus mechanicus army.
Renegade Mechanicus Army Project Log - Librarium Online
Every single model is his own conversion. He decided that it was best represented by a daemon list. There are no $4000 of other troops to bulk it out, they are all his creations. Most people who play it say they love it and have no problems with it. It fits with the background, the rules are still fair, he is upfront as to what things represent and most reasonable gamers have no bones with it. As to tournaments, he entered the Summer of War at Warhammer World and came second. Look at his last post, no one had an issue with the counts as aspect and he won a prize.
Add to this:
Boomer has a race of purple aliens that count as orks
Really aliens are purple! And blog about it! - Librarium Online
Protius has an army of rebel grots based on the IG book (storm troopers are grots with riot shields)
THE GREAT GROT REBELLION!!! Part 1 - Librarium Online
Inquisitor Earl has a cult mechanicus army
The Mechanicus Project - Librarium Online
Thats just a few moments searching on one forum for whole counts as armies. GW codex's leave lots of room, either for simple name and model changes, up to whole unexplored corners of the fiction. The very novels people like Gav write inspire people to make models that have no rules, and the adaptability of the codex's allow them to make room for them. If these people had waited around for an official document to tell them they could be creative these great projects would never have happened. Mind you if someone can't think of a use for an Iron Warrior with a servo arm then I worry for them. They can always pop onto a forum, i"m sure the community could think of lots of suggestions for them.
(BTW I'm writing this not as pure polemic, but in the hope that it helps, and these great Iron Warriors miniatures get back out of the cupboard and onto the field!)
I’ve been reading this too, and I was going to post, but I don’t think it’ll add much to the discussions on there; instead I’ll post what I was gonna put here:As to the OP, I agree in having some imagination can go along way. Sure not having the rules for something is a pain, but this is a creative hobby, why can’t people let their imagination run wild? My army is exactly how I want it - its Undivided with a dash of Nurgle, and I'm looking to expand this. Sure it looks a bit boring on paper, and there is a slight lack of daemons, but everything can be represented in there.Basically, his reasoning was that it was his aim to:
Now I want to ask some questions:
- Make all armies and legions possible,
- To streamline the Codex down to its core
- To remove all of the "invisible" rules that sort of evaded WYSIWYG, such as infltrate and the Daemonic Gifts, which led to some admittedly confusing situations. This includes Daemon Princes having about 10 bits of wargear, not all WYSIWYG, Legion rules, Veteran skills (again not WYSIWYG) etc.
How are the legions not playable in the new Codex?
I can understand the difficulties in not playing Alpha Legion and the Word Bearers, but unless I'm missing something BIG, then I don't see why the 4th edition Codex cannot represent all of them.
Reading back through 3.5, the rules for the Legions weren't that exotic, and mostly consisted of limitations of which a player can restrict himself now. Losing Sonic weapons from EC armies is something the EC armies lost I suppose, but from what I can see you can build pretty much the same stuff, minus the Daemonette's, as you can now. Death Guard, World Eaters and Thousand Sons all had lots of their Cult troops, which is a restriction a player can set oneself, so why was losing these rules a problem?
On the other hand, I can understand where Alpha Legion and Wordbearers lost out, however while they have lose out now, I think it’s a problem which could of easily been sorted by GW. Losing Infiltrate was what made people choose Alpha Legion, so why couldn't they of made Chosen count as scoring units? I guess that was the problem with having a pre-5th ed Codex. Cultists were a great option for Alpha Legion, but I guess they were dropped because they were a “niche” and relatively small part of the Codex. Wordbearers, on the other, lost its supply of Daemons, which could have been sorted, again by GW, by making Daemons customisable with Icons, and having 2 new Daemon Units - Winged Daemons and Daemonic Beasts.
I can sort of see a problem with Night Lords and Iron Warriors and the perks that they lost. The main thing I can see is that the NL lost Night Vision and Furies, while the Iron Warriors lost Siege Specialists and the Basilisk, and possibly the Servo Arm, which is something I guess. However, they didn't lose anything else, so why are they a problem? You can still field lots of heavy weapons, or lots of fast attack choices, and they can still be a “fluffy” Iron Warriors or Night Lords army.
In my opinion, I think you can play a lot of the Legions using the current rules, but from what I’ve read around, it seems that some people strongly believe in Rules = Fluff, which unless I’m missing something major, is a bit ludicrous.
While I’m on the topic – Cult troops. What I don’t understand is how people claim that losing the Marks lost them their Cult troops – I still see Plague Marines, Khorne Beserkers, Rubic Marines and Noise Marines, but they’ve been simplified and moved into new units types. In fact, its one of the only cases of expanding our options.
If I have missed something, please can you explain to me what exactly I have missed, and why it “removed” the Legions.
Did they over do it on the streamlining?
With the way the Codices are going, the streamlining was inevitable. The Wargear Section was removed, as too were the Marks and Veteran Skills, which fitted to the Design Team’s concept – to make things simpler. However, this was all fine in my opinion, as we did have a lot, and it made it sometimes really complicated. However, one thing that really ticked me off was while we were expecting the new codexes to be streamlined, it wasn’t the case – Space Marines gained a lot in their update, gaining Tactical Squads, Drop Pods, new weapons, a full page of upgrades and options for a Commander, lots of new units etc etc etc. For an army which was so strict and forced, how did they gain so much, and yet the “loose, free and diverse army” lost so heavily?
I think the one thing we really did lose was options. In my opinion the current CSM is fine, if not brilliant; however, having a few options would have been nice. Options is what I think was what added flavour to a force, and I think is why people still crave the Legion rules – they had the option to do so (and still do, just no one is forcing you to do it). Options is what the Space Marines gained – you could have special characters which changed your army structure, you have lots of wargear options, lots of units to play around with, and have the ability to represent a Chapter of your liking. We on the other hand, lost most of this, and lost the option to upgrade many of our units, and tailor them specifically to our needs and likes. This includes things like Possessed, HQs, vehicles (although I don’t see it as much of an issue), Aspiring Champions, Chosen to name but a few.
Something else I have read is that people believe that certain units are unplayable, and yes, I can see that. Unfortunatly, some units are just completely unplayable.
My argument to “fixing” the current 4th Edition Codex would be to start off with this codex, and expand, giving us a few more options. Having customisable HQs with lots of different options both generic and God specific would have allowed them to really stand out and be personalised, and it really would have added depth to our characters. There would be a limit of course, to keep things simple (a sort of compromise if you will). I think they could have expanded on the Daemons, by having 3 different units for Lesser Daemons (normal, Winged and Daemonic Beasts) each which could have been given Icons. Same with the Greater Daemons, just expand on the options. Returning mutations to Possessed might also be an idea, and anywhere else, just expanding the options. As long as you can apply WYSIWYG, then they should of allowed it. But alas, never mind.
Just wait til a beardy tournament player gets on here lol.
Im just amazed at the retinues that Bryan Younts had in his old army list.
Currently play: 4000+ of Black Legion
I think Bryan is the kind of guy that just likes to moan.
He quit the hobby coz of a codex change? Surely that would make his whole collection even more worthless?
Oh and thanks for the mention of my name!!
I just read the blog and all the comments. I have to say i totally agree with all the nay sayers this time.
The chaos codex is a weak and boring compared to the marine codex.
Last edited by Chubby_Jedi; September 17th, 2009 at 22:20.
I AM BOOMER!
Waxing philosophical, it's only a matter of time before all of our armies either lose value or playability. It's the nature of the beast; periodic revisions keep the game fresh and interesting yet nobody cannot expect his models to endure a constant stream of change. You can't hold on too hard. Enjoy the painting, gaming and modeling but don't expect your grandkids to be excited about inheriting your pro-painted Cypher.Not weak, but definitely boring. Get rid of the Horus Heresy backstory? I never saw that one coming. I wish GW would put more effort into storytelling.The chaos codex is weak and boring compared to the marine codex.
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
I agree with your view on GW games , especialy 40k.Because GW is '...in the buisness of selling toy soldiers...'(Acording to Company Chairman Tom Kirby.)
HOWEVER , other companies manage to add to thier games without invalidating models units or armies.As they appear to be in the buisness of developing great games and growing thier customer base!
But they tend to get the basic rules to deliver maximum game play in the most efficient way.
40k has never has a rule set written specificaly for the current game play.
(Its an abstract WHFB clone,it and the codexes are written to help sell the latest releases.)
Try Thane Games, Two Hour Wargames, Ground Zero Games,Cataslist Games etc,
and see the difference.
On the other hand, as far as the later goes, if we're to have faith in GW's production of subsequent cult codices (and this, I say, with a very hefty IF), then we shouldn't expect too much flavor from the present CSM codex. It is, after all, just a renegade 'dex, designed for vanilla traitors. It does a pretty good job at achieving this on virtually every front, while maintaining a competitive edge.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
The 4th ed CSM were an aberration. If anything, they had it too good - too many options, too many alternates and too many work-arounds (e.g. Legion specific 'free' vet skills).
If you look back to the 2nd and 3rd ed codices, the unit selection and options (bar daemons) were much as they are now. Given how good the 4th ed book was, it was inevitable that the nastier options would get toned down (Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors etc.).
And lastly, there will always be people on the 'edge' - those that took the codex to the extreme. This small number of people will always 'suffer' the most - but for the 'average' player the majority of their models will still be usable.
(I have a Black Legion army. The main reason I drifted away from it was that nothing in the codex interested me...and I had a fairly normal army; basic marines, havocs, predators)
Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.Originally Posted by amishcellphone
I used to have a Black Legion army as well, but I sold it off when the new codex was released. I could deal with the streamlining and removal of so many unit options and wargear, even though I enjoyed the variety so much. What I couldn't accept was the loss of the Chaos feel, the flavour of the army I'd enjoyed. No god-specific daemons, no enmity, no veteran skills for these warriors that've been around for thousands of years. The codex just felt like it'd been stripped of everything that made Chaos Marines interesting to me, that instead of ancient, evil, god-worshipping warriors, suddenly they were Space Marines who'd switched sides the day before.
So that's just my two cents. I understand why Gav wanted the 'dex streamlined and more balanced, I just feel he scrubbed the fun out of it as he did it. I suppose I could have stuck with Chaos until the next codex, but I knew I would have to wait for at least four more revisions of the Space Marine codex before that ever happened. As I said, I sold my Black Legion army but I switched over to Tyranids and I've been happy with that decision. Here's hoping that feeling will continue with their upcoming dex revision.