Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
So after a few year break from the game, I’ve started getting back into both 40k and Fantasy. So I went down to the local GW to Games night to watch some games, and was blown away by how boring they were. Mostly fantasy where one side stood still and shot or magiced and the other side charged across, or both sides just charged forward and met in the middle. It was terrible, the most strategic decisions I saw being made were whether to issue challenges or not. These were not the tense, hard thought and fought games that I remember having with my buddies years ago. The few small 40k battles I have fought recently were similar affairs with little scope for crafty thinking and surprising the enemy.
So are my experience just too limited and both game systems are dynamic and interesting or are my fears well founded.
The other thing I found was the games were fast, these guys were playing a 2000 point fantasy battle in just under an hour, I remember it taking three times that long.
Anyways I still love the fluff and modeling and posting on forums, I just started questioning my decision to start a couple new armies.
Have other people had similar experiences or am I an aberration?
I see the same thing at the place I play at on occasion, only in fun games. When tournaments roll around that's when the real played come out. What you talking about are people playing to play not to win. motivate them to win and It'll get intresting.
Some people are like slinkies...not really good for anything but still make you smile when you push them down the stairs.
Well I kinda question who you were watching play when you were watching the fantasy game. I have seen a lot of younger kids with no strategy just line up there guys and head straight for each other, and well mainly the stronger guys win this way. This way of playing can work if you have a strong unit, like chaos knights or whatever, but when you try doing that with guys like empire, it doesn't work, and you need to think a little with what your doing. Now I'm not putting down strong unit in saying that you just go charging in, you have to think what your opponent is going to do, if he is smart he will find ways to throw your strong units off course, and you have to try and counter these moves.
I find when i play someone with far less experience than me, and I make certain moves that aren't expected, most younger gamers just always go for the charge weather they can beat the unit or not, like going for flanks and what not, they have no idea what to do after this and are completely lost in the game. So I hate to say it, but the game of fantasy you saw was probably played by 2 people who have no idea how to involve strategy in there game.
As for 40k, well I can't defend that game, the only cool thing about it is it's models, sorry.
In some respects, I don't think you're wrong. 40k and Fantasy both have over the last few editions shown a trend of simplifying and streamlining rules and gameplay. Some people will call this "dumbing down", but this vastly depends on the players. Going into GW stores will mostly yield new and inexperienced players.
On the flip side, going to any well-run tournament will expose the veteran skilled players and the games will (usually) be hard, fast and competitive.
it's not strictly just a game for tactics though
DnD is pretty boring if you take everything out except for the dice rolls
You have to also keep in mind that it's likely to be a tainted memory. Everything was better in the old days, you know? Maybe everything has gone into simpler terms, but it's just that it can't be as good as you remember it,
Okay, so now I have no signature. Great.
Well, I can tell you that I actually dropped 40k because of the tactics and boredom that you're talking about, but then lately I've been watching games at my local RT and they seem to be pretty hard-fought, tactical affairs. I'm trying to learn how to use my Space Marines like that, or possibly start IG, just to enjoy the game.
Fantasy on the other hand, I have played for the past decade, and I can say that the games are still as hard fought now as they were when I started. Both systems are indeed being streamlined, but the only one that I feel has been genuinely "dumbed down" is 40k. Many of the 40k armies have lost the things that made them individual, and the rules are getting noticeably simpler. In WHFB, you're seeing a shift more towards speed of play- armywide special rules, magic items rather than the old card system, a more simplified magic phase rather than the old card/winds system, etc.
I agree that since you're in a GW shop, you're seeing new, young players taking simple one-sided lists and bashing it out for "who's guys are stronger". However, I'm a tournament player, and I can attest that the tourneys are the place to see hard-played games.
That being said, you were also a passive observer. Recently I took my girlfriend to the shop to watch a tournament that was being played. She's used to RTS console games, and TCGs like Magic. I showed her high-level tournament gaming, and later she asked the same question that you are, "So the idea is to just move your guys together, then fight?" Without playing the game, it's harder to see the deeper levels of the tactics. Because she didn't know the rules, she also didn't understand how advantageous "flanking" was, or how big a deal it was that someone was in control of a hill, or why terrain set-up was so important. To her, it was all just moving models to get into combat, or shooting at each other.
To me, I could understand the intricacies of List Building (which is a bigger part of the game now than ever), of knowing which units could statistically equal one another and deploying or maneuvering to get advantageous fights, and of using terrain to your advantage.
I say sit down a play a few games against the same friends that you used to play against. Some of it might be nostalgia, and some of it might be the fact that you're just getting into the game and "don't know any better" than to run and shoot, but I think you'll find that unless you were playing 40k in the days of 2nd/3rd edition, the games are largely the same.
I think it totally depends on whos playing and how. Games can be as good or bad as you make them. Some of the best games i have played i have lost but they where close games because we play competativly. If two people just play and play simple it is boring, especially to watch.
"Should take you a while though because of your sloth like pace"
Click here and watch Gedderz try and cross the road
You're all probably right about watching compared to playing. The players all seemed fairly experienced, just none of them did anything tactically exciting, no flee reactions, no drawing off frenzied units, but they were just friendly games.
Ok, my initial disapointment has worn off.
On to something else, you say the games have gotten simpler but does that mean it has just devolved into rock, paper, scissor? Another thing that I was thinking about is, that I do not like the run rule. It means that those ork slugga boys and similar units are never going to shoot there weapons why would they when they could run, and get that much closer to assault? Has the specialisation of units increased with the new edition?
I apologize for going off on incoherent tangents.