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Out of boredom I made this: YTMND - Warhammer 40,000 Alignments Any arguments against some of my choices? I probably don't have as much knowledge about some of the 40K fluff as some people do.
nice ghraph.....pretty well illustrated. good job
FOR THE GREAT SANGUINIUS AND THE EMPEROR....red and black all the way.
Theme song for the Death Company. "Gory Gory" By the men of Easy company, 101st Airborne, 506.
This argument comes up just about every month. The reason we all love Warhammer 40k so much is that there is no "good". Everyone is evil in some way.
If anything, you have Orks right.
Tyranids are not evil because they are "incapable of good, honest, human hatred". They are neutral at worst.
There are many quotes from Eldar on how they, once they are strong enough, will exterimate humans just out of spite. They also admit to manipulating other for their selfish needs. Plus, Eldar are too focused in self-control to be labeled non-lawful.
The Imperium are virulently expansionist and genocidal. They kill anything they don't understand and they destroy anything that they find offensive. Space Marines epitomize this evil.
Chaos are not evil because they are simply honest. They are a force of emotions taken form. They do what all other races do, only they embrace their actions as their existence. If Orks can 'fight' without being labelled evil, why can't Nurgle cultivate his children without being 'evil'?
How are Necrons 'lawful'? They simply destroy anything that isn't Necron. Plus, the Lords war amongst themselves on occasion.
"Good" and "Evil" in D&D are absolutes of a spectrum. "Good" does not mean 'beneficial' and "Evil" does not mean 'detrimental'.
At best, every faction in 40k is somewhat Neutral. At worst, they'll happily murder their own grandmothers if it means getting ahead of the other factions. That's grimdark for you, kids!
Without getting into a discussion of what 'Good' and 'Evil' actually means, let's consider what these races actually do:
Tyranids: "Gotta eat them planets, gotta eat them planets, gotta eat them planets... AKA: Kill anything that lives."
Necrons: "Kill anything that lives."
Chaos Daemons: "Kill anything mortal that doesn't worship us."
Chaos Space Marines: "Kill anything that doesn't worship them."
Space Marines: "Kill anything that doesn't worship him."
Imperial Guard: "Kill anything that doesn't worship him, because we're told to."
Inquisiton: "Kill anyone we like if it benefits us."
Orks: "Kill anyone because we like killing."
Tau: "Kill anyone that won't join our regime."
Eldar: "Kill anyone we like if it benefits us."
Dark Eldar: "Kill anyone."
i for one pretty much totally agree with OP
if you had to put them into a DnD graph. there are obvious liberties and depending on the way you look at it they could all move around but i feel this is a pretty close aproximation if you were trying to get a DnD player into 40k
otherwise my points are as follows:
Last edited by Kelter Skelter; October 14th, 2009 at 22:45.
They make outrageous demands, "We know you've lived here for centuries, but we decided you should get off our Exodite World in the next week or we'll kill you all."
Plus, this quote excerpt from an Eldar Ranger:
"Your kind think you are so magnificent, yet even now, at the nadir of our power, we can manipulate you, turn you to our ends, as easily as you might pull a trigger and fire a gun. Our time will come again, Eldrad has promised us. Once more you upstart Mon-keigh [subject spits] shall kneel before our power! This time we will not be so lenient! We will exterminate you, every world, every vessel, every one of you! Eldrad has seen the stars stained red with your blood, and it pleases him!"
Also, "corrupted" is subjective. Nurgle genuinely loves his children. Slaanesh's followers do feel true pleasure. Grandfather Nurgle cultivates and grows his garden and feels affection for his children. Nurgle doesn't do it because he wants to spite all life and destroy it for his pleasure. He does it because decay is his nature just as Orks have fighting in their nature.
Overall, Warhammer 40k does a good job at making most races acceptably 'neutral' in many regards on the good-evil axis. If anything, the Necrons could be considered the most 'evil' because they extinguish life not to propogate like the tyranids, not because it is their nature like Chaos or Orks, not because of some rationale like Eldar and the Imperium. They hate life because they were jealous as Necrontyr and they're jealous as Necrons. Their C'tan Gods hate life not to survive but because they can.
The thing is you're looking at every race from it's own point of view not your personal point of view
If you look at the evil things in DnD from their own perspective they don't think they are evil either.
You're suppose to look at things from your point of view meaning humans are your general preference, helping things is considered good and killing things is considered good.
I'm looking at his alignment suggestions from the view of myself being a human and using the imperium as a starting point because it's what most closely resembles me. Thus they are likely to be considered more good than others because they're simply fighting for mankind.
That's my opinion on the situation. I feel you're giving the 40k lore too much credit about how "every race is truly unique". Let's face it, 40k is based off of fantasy and fantasy is based off of DnD. There are going to be a lot of parallels no matter how you look at it.
I disagree. The 40k fluff is made such that no race wakes up each day, looks themselves in the mirror, and says "time to go commit evil!". The races either justify their actions or are incapable/unwilling to question their rationale.
40k's world has relative scales of good versus evil. The Imperium sees dark Eldar as evil and the Eldar as not-really-that-evil (but still needs to die). The Eldar see the Necrons as evil and the Dark Eldar as not-really-that-evil. The Tyranids see everyone as potential food. Everyone else sees the Tau as confused kids.
40k doesn't care about "good" versus "evil". It cares about "good" versus "harmful". To the Imperial Guard, The Thousand Sons are "Neutral Harmful" and the Space Wolves are "Chaotic Good". To the Thousand Sons, the Space Wolves are "Chaotic Harmful" and the Imperial Guard is "Lawful Harmful".
D&D's world has demons and devils and yugoloths that really do wake up in the Abyss or the Nine Hells or Gehenna or wherever, and decide that they should commit evil. They are fully understanding that they commit evil. Succubi seduce not for their own ends, but because they acknowledge their own evil. There are many quotes of "Evil" gods or entities acknowledging that their actions are evil.
D&D has a scale of absolute evil. You're either evil or you're not regardless of who you are. If Asmodeus himself came down to his most truly loyal Imp and cast the spell "Detect Evil" on it, it would show up as Evil.
If Tiamat herself approached Bahamut himself and cast "Detect Good", Tiamat would see Bahamut as "Good" in spite of the fact that they would boh try to destroy one another at earliest opportunity.
Even some non-divine D&D entities such as Mind Flayers and Red Dragons are "evil" not only because they are sadistic and maliciously harm others, but because "Detect Evil" considers them so.
I still stand by the fact you're giving 40k too much credit