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Thread: List Tailoring

  1. #1
    Official Lol Cannon magila's Avatar
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    List Tailoring

    Just wondering how everyone feels about creating an army list to specifically deal with the army you're about to fight. Is it cheating? Is it unfluffy? Is it a viable strategy? Is it foolish not to do it? Is it acceptable enough to take home to your parents?

    My thoughts have always been that it's rather unfluffy to change your list to suit your opponent. Also, it opens up a whole cycle of trying to counter each other, in which the list tailoring never ends. Eg: A list tailoring guard player versing a list tailoring nid player.

    If the guard player normally runs a lot of anti tank/MEQ weapons and finds out that the nid player is going to be using his horde list.

    1)Guard swaps out all his lascannons for heavy bolters and plasma for grenade launchers, to make his list anti horde.

    2) Nid player see's guard player has does this and now swaps out all his horde for carnifex spam.

    3) Guard player then goes back to lascannon list to counter carnifexs.

    4) Nid player then goes back to horde to counter lascannons.

    Obviously this is just one example. Before my games I have one set list and don't ask what type of army my opponent has, players should have enough balance in their army and skill to be able to deal with all army types reasonably effectively. So I say: List Tailoring = Unfluffy and nay.

    What do you fellow warhammer fanatics believe?


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  3. #2
    Saviour of the worthy Lord Castellan Mik's Avatar
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    Mate... all I can say is check out the WW2, and others, battle formations

    In real life, armies are PICKED from all available forces to combat the specific threat effectively and efficiently... and with the least casualties in relation to gains made.

    I have always stated that ONE 2000 point list is not enough to combat ALL possible threats that one could encounter.

    As such you would need around 4000 points of a collection to be able to play strategically against any enemy at any time and be able to PICK which assets are required for this oponent, this time... you could also then field a decent Apocalypse force as well.

    By all means, devise ONE list for all comers... but expect to lose often when your oponants realise that your list is rigid and unchanged for every game.

    It is only a game after all, in the end you play it the way that you want to

    Mik
    Stress… is when you wake up screaming
    and realise you haven't fallen asleep yet.

  4. #3
    Senior Member joebloggs1987's Avatar
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    Personally i think its a bit rude to change a list to beat a particular army.

    In my playgroup, we make a list each, and we play one game against every other person before we are allowed to change the list.

    If one list is designed to take out a particular army, then it takes the fun out of the game, and takes away the strategy. I would rather play a game of chess than rock-paper-scissors.

    When you make a list, you should be keeping in mind every single possible threat in the 40k universe, and making a list that can deal with everything.

    People that change their list every single game depending on their opponent are usually too stupid to build an effective and well rounded list.
    Chaos - 11W 0L 0D
    Orks - 8W 0L 0D
    Tyranids - 8W 0L 0D

  5. #4
    Saviour of the worthy Lord Castellan Mik's Avatar
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    OOO... such venom

    Lucky that I am not offended... actually, no luck needed... it's just a game

    Warhammer 40K is a game of strategy and tactics using miniatures

    Many different army lists are possible to be created and used as often and as varied as you wish

    Chess is a game of strategy and tactics using miniatures

    ONE list is available... you can not change it no matter what, no choices

    I play Warhammer 40K... many lists as required... or not, I have lots of choices

    It is choices that make it a good game or just a game

    But you do have a choice any way you want.

    I believe in choices and you don't... fair enough

    Mik
    Stress… is when you wake up screaming
    and realise you haven't fallen asleep yet.

  6. #5
    LO Zealot Kelter Skelter's Avatar
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    I feel the game is designed around having balanced list so that you have fun and exciting battles. However, if you know what the other guy is going to bring to the table it's stupid to dive in head first without at least tweaking your army some. You would be spiting yourself to intentionally not tweak your army and it could cost you the game.

    In the scenario you gave I feel that both players should call it an arms race truce and agree to both bring balanced lists rather than these 1 trick-pony cheese lists that is either all MCs/High S weapons or all Hoarde/Infantry killing weapons.

    In the end it's about making sure the game is fun to play and some tweaking would be expected and possibly even encouraged but, it needs moderation and balance.

  7. #6
    Lord Admiral kithre's Avatar
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    "Master Sergeant Variant! Break out the lascanons and plasma guns"

    "But sir, we are fighting orks, arn't searing high energy beams somehwat - overkill? And we haven't got enough rate of fire? Andf didn't we lose 5 men to plasma injuries caused by malfunctioning weapons last time out? Aren't Heavy Bolters and grenade launchers better?"

    "We fought against the Apostate Angels of the North Renegade Marines last month with lacannon and plasma guns, and they performed admirably. Following standard Imperial Wargaming doctrine, I will use whatever I used in the last battle, until I have fought once against every race that is out there, and only then will we switch to using Heavy Bolters and grenade launchers.."

    "But sir, what if they are Necrons? Or more marines? Or.."

    ZZZZAP - Lieutenant Inflexible shoots the Master Sergeant with his personal flashlight.. The NCO looks down at the slightly blackened spot on his carapace armour and brushes it off.

    "Enough of your insolence, Master Sergeant THAT is the way its is done here!"


    Meanwhile, on the planet below:

    "Da humies iz comin'. Der is lotz of dem, more dan..1,2,3,10... And dey as bug gunz..."

    "Good, its clobbering time...WAAAAAARGH!!!"

  8. #7
    Senior Member joebloggs1987's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Castellan Mik View Post
    OOO... such venom

    Lucky that I am not offended... actually, no luck needed... it's just a game

    Warhammer 40K is a game of strategy and tactics using miniatures

    Many different army lists are possible to be created and used as often and as varied as you wish

    Chess is a game of strategy and tactics using miniatures

    ONE list is available... you can not change it no matter what, no choices

    I play Warhammer 40K... many lists as required... or not, I have lots of choices

    It is choices that make it a good game or just a game

    But you do have a choice any way you want.

    I believe in choices and you don't... fair enough

    Mik
    Sorry. I didnt mean to come across as harsh, and i didnt mean to target you in particular.

    I too believe in choice with army lists. My playgroup constantly changes our lists after we have played everyone once.
    After playing the game for 11 years, it just gets boring when someone takes howling banshees when they know they are up against genestealers, bring carnifexes up to T7 when against a lot of S3, take less heavy weapons when up against a non-mech army, etc.

    Writing an effective list that can tackle any situation requires more skill than playing the game itself. I build my list to take on anything that is thrown at it.
    I have an answer to tanks, an answer to MC's, an answer to outflankers, an answer to MEQ and GEQ, and an answer to 180 boyz. In fact, i have multiple answers to each of them. If the primary suitable tactic is no longer feasible, then i will have at least 2 other backup plans in order to deal with the situation. And i do this at only 1500 points.

    At the end of the day, if you are going to come up against something like green tide then of course your going to pack in the flamers. But its like playing rock-paper-scissors and knowing what the opponent is going to choose. May as well save the 2-3 hours of your life and do something else instead.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions however. My view is not necessarily correct, as a real life situation you would be stupid not to customize your army to take down another countries forces, but warhammer is a game and is supposed to be fun.

    All of my lists i have played with have been made to combat anything, and my win/loss ratio is quite good. And the best part about it is that i have a lot of fun running a list against a variety of opponents successfully. Once i have played everyone once, then my list gets changed.
    Chaos - 11W 0L 0D
    Orks - 8W 0L 0D
    Tyranids - 8W 0L 0D

  9. #8
    Lord Admiral kithre's Avatar
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    You can tailor your list all you like, there are just some thing sthat you can surprise your opponent with chrnically.
    He thinks I'll bring Stealers eh? Well lets surprise him and bring Biovores...

    My army has a lot of Dragon Princes, so a lot of opponents don't bother with flame-based weaponry. Sometimes I make them spend their points on a weapon that is not the optimal weapon just because of the Dragon Armour rule..then field maybe 1 character in Dragon Armour...

  10. #9
    Official Lol Cannon magila's Avatar
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    "Warchief Fluff! Break out the lascannons and plasma guns!"

    "But Sir, we're a light infantry jungle fighters regiment on a backwater death world... I mean, flamers and heavy bolters favour our style of fighting, considering the planet we're on and the tech that's available too us. Aren't plasma guns considered rare and technologically complex to create? Only high class forge worlds have the man power to churn out those kinds of weapons in such high numbers."

    "Nonsense, we're fighting against the Apostate Angels of the North Renegade marines, their tanks are many and plasma guns would be brutally efficient at dealing with their armour. Following standard imperial wargamming doctrine I will use whatever weapons seem to fit the situation... no matter how improbable or useless that gear would be in any other situation considering the planet we live on! Now... bring out the vanquishers!"

    "Vanquishers?! We live on a world with 90% of it's surface covered in a jungle so thick, a man can't squeeze between the trees and mud so deep it could swallow a whole land raider . Why in Terra would we need long range anti armour battle tanks...? And what happens next week? When the Ork hordes we've been fighting come back for another WAAAGHHH"

    ZZZZAP - Lieutenant Situational shoots the Warchief with his personal laspistol... The NCO looks down at the slightly blackened spot on his mud covered chest and brushes it off.

    "Enough of your insolence, Warchief THAT is the way its is done here!"

    I suppose it all comes down to why you play warhammer, for the back story or to win the games.

  11. #10
    Lord Admiral kithre's Avatar
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    lol - touche. I play for fun, but really think that some common sense should prevail. The Imperium (ok maybe NOT the Imperium in general) and many other armies will normally send teh best troops fo rteh job - Jungle fighting specialists in verdant green jungle terrain (where support tanks are actually surprisingly effective as proven by the Japanese in WWII and the US Army and North Vietnamese army in Vietnam), heavy infantry in close-quarters fighting, armour concentrations in plateaus or desert worlds (think Gulf War, Kurusk, Tobruk) etc.

    Most armies will not have access to high tech, and this needs to be factored in the lists better - at present there is too much reliance on these special weapons. And the lucky glancing hit needs to return, as many tanks were disabled in combat by pretty mundane stuff - remember the Warrior APC in Iraq that was petrol bombed? Hardly a hi-tech weapon, with armour defeating capabilities - but still caused the crew to bail out...but Listhammer somewhat makes up for it.

    I believe in retaining a common core and in a tourney setting, the list is fixed, but friendly games ought to have an element of tweaking and tailoring, as otherwise there can be some horrendous mismatches (e.g. Nid horde vs Guard Heavy armour, or High Elf special infantry heavy army vs Empire infantry heavy non-gunline...the Empire army would get butchered in that instance!)
    Last edited by kithre; November 12th, 2009 at 13:34.

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