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Tyra-omg more like it

2K views 25 replies 19 participants last post by  Seasonreaper 
#1 ·
First off, I normally don't balk at an entire codex. So don't blast me for this thread. Every book has its upsides and its downsides, people cav-itch about it for awhile, then realize 'eh, not all powerful'. But I am reading this thing and I just can't help but say this book is absurd. Absurd the way the Eldar craftworld book was absurd at times. The disproportionate wounds on champions, the special characters, the ABSURD special powers (absurbing wounds? what in gods name? like they need more wounds...), the sheer number of troops that fit inside a Landing spore (why bother with MCs when you could deploy your entire infantry army in these). Honestly, there's not enough shots to kill a tyranid army if they are drop outside your door step. Rapid fired Marines or charging, you still ain't killing the 60+ troops that just appeared in front of you. I won't even get started on the ICs, gawd lord...

I'm not saying that I can't beat them... but I am saying I am going to have to tailor my list against this army. Flamers, flamers, and more flamers. I may even use Jaws of the World Wolf now! I am not even sure what I am gonna do against MCs as of now. 3 or 4 MCs wasn't bad, but 6 or 7 or 8 or 9?! Honestly... seriously now? What can a balance list list do against that? I normally run a balance list, but this is just not fun.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Space wolf player i'm guessing.

Mec up so they definatly wont get the asault
Assault them using multi assault rules- 1 marine unit can shut down 2 big swarms and slowly wade through them.
Use terminators- again multi assaults.
Arjac?
Use jotww on carnifexes
Longfangs-5 guys, 4 missiles =115
Thunderwolves are amazing agaist t3 swarms (hit on 3's wound on 2's then 6+ save
Those units are in my normal lists anyway.

Not saying its gunna be easy and I think their codex is a hier tier than ours but if youre better than your opponent you should win most of the time. It starts to get scary when the player you play is good and knows hot to counter your counters though.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I don't even use most of that stuff that in my army... so what? I have to dish out more money? It seems like that's all I do for this hobby nowadays.
True, this hobby costs way more at times than I think it should, but there is another solution to the latest uber-dex release (below).

Different armies releasing change the metagame. That's how the game has always worked. As Space Marine armies increased (more) in popularity, as Necrons were released, the metagame shifted to have a distinct anti-MEQ player. Everyone was 'tailoring' their lists to defeat these armies, because they were so popular. You couldn't find a 4th edition army list that didn't stack starcannons, plasma guns, etc. Now, the swarm armies are coming back out; Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Orks. Now you have to shift slightly more away from anti-MEQ and into anti-infantry. It's just the game changing before our eyes, and our armies may have to change to go with it.

I don't think the new Tyranids are going to be that difficult to beat. Just change a few things up. I've been starting to experiment with flamers at any rate, and believe it or not, they aren't so bad, even against other Space Marine armies!
I agree with you on every point but one: With ALL codices, it's possible to build a balanced, take-all-comers list. Granted, older codices only let you build ONE such army, and newer codices let you build several, but the truth is, no matter WHAT GW throws at you, ALL codices still have the SAME threats: stock "grunt" infantry, big gun/glass cannon units, big stick/useless-at-a-distance units, hordes, MEQs, monstrous creatures, psychic powers, deep strikers and vehicles. The nid codex is NO different. All they're doing is finding new ways to throw the same old threats at you.

The trick is not to change your LIST. If it can take all comers now, especially in a strong competitive venue like a tournament, then you shouldn't change one thing about the LIST. What needs to change is YOU. How do you deploy? Do you usually go up the middle? Maybe now you should consider taking a flank and sticking with it, or vice versa. Do you deep strike? Maybe now you should put everything on the table on turn one, or vice versa. Do you normally do an aggressive advance? Maybe now is the time to try out your army while hanging back, or vice versa.

Just throwing that out there. If you have a well-built list that can take a beating, offer up SOMETHING to pretty much any threat, and has lots of redundancy, you don't NEED to spend any more money.

Heck, even if you DO need to refine your list, don't be so quick to just do that. Instead, try using what you have first, and try doing DIFFERENT things with it. You might surprise yourself, and find you can give your wallet a rest.
 
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#8 ·
I am not even sure what I am gonna do against MCs as of now. 3 or 4 MCs wasn't bad, but 6 or 7 or 8 or 9?! Honestly... seriously now? What can a balance list list do against that?
Shoot them and/or assault them - each MC represents a whole squad or more of your troops; several of them cost more than a landraider and none of them come in at less than 160pts for the bare bones versions (excluding the drop spores).
 
#9 ·
Different armies releasing change the metagame. That's how the game has always worked. As Space Marine armies increased (more) in popularity, as Necrons were released, the metagame shifted to have a distinct anti-MEQ player. Everyone was 'tailoring' their lists to defeat these armies, because they were so popular. You couldn't find a 4th edition army list that didn't stack starcannons, plasma guns, etc. Now, the swarm armies are coming back out; Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Orks. Now you have to shift slightly more away from anti-MEQ and into anti-infantry. It's just the game changing before our eyes, and our armies may have to change to go with it.

I don't think the new Tyranids are going to be that difficult to beat. Just change a few things up. I've been starting to experiment with flamers at any rate, and believe it or not, they aren't so bad, even against other Space Marine armies!



 
#12 ·
absurbing wounds? what in gods name? like they need more wounds...

Just wanted to make a specific point about this. No instant death immunity + krak missle + T4 zoanthrope + 1 failed Inv = one dead 10 wound thrope

Its really not that bad. Sure its a pain but just hit it with a S8 gun.
 
#13 ·
@Canew: I completely agree with you there, if you have found a list for you that works well in a competitive field against "everything" and you know you're weaknesses, that should work with "just" changing your strategy slightly and adapt, but that is much harder then it sounds and takes a lot of experience.

(I for my part don't have that experince yet, but that'll come in time :)... )
 
#18 ·
To make sure all the races are balanced GW decided to make them all broken.
The Privateer Press idiom? It didn't work well for them, as I recall. Even today, when I look at winning Warmachine lists at least half of them are identical. That is not balance. Regardless, you are probably right about GW.

I think the source of concern is over whether it is possible for a balanced list to handle a deliberately unbalanced Tyranid list. The answer is 'probably not' but that has been true for most of the recent Codices. As Codex Creep continues, I expect there will be an ever-increasing gulf between friendly and competitive play. And that brings us back to the 'everything is balanced because everything is broken' idiom. If every Codex is broken, meaning easy to abuse, then choosing not to abuse your own Codex will result in nigh-guaranteed loss against anybody who does.

For this reason I don't even care whether the Tyranid Codex is balanced. I play for fun; therefore, the attitude of my opponent is more important.
 
#23 ·
Thank you Sensei Canew.
Ahhhhhh, grasshopper! Much to learn you still have!

Now, go chop wood and carry water. If you are good, I MAY put a spoonful of honey in your rice, but I make NO promises!

Seriously, it IS hard to do, but if it were easy, well, what fun would THAT be?
 
#20 ·
I don't play as an MEQ player but I find that flamers are constantly overlooked, in 5th twin-linked flamers are a lot more nastier and are great both for their low points cost (thus, able to take more of them) and their ability to stack wounds if and when they are taken in large numbers and that's without the other advantages they offer.

As a Tau player, I'm increasingly drawn to take squads of 3 Twin-linked Flamer Battlesuits, they are a boon to both MEQ/GEQ alike, heck I nearly wiped out a squad of 10 Skyclaws with TL Flamers, putting over 20 wounds on them! IMO TL Flamers are awesome :).

Go with what Canew said earlier, change NOT your army, but the way you USE it.

My proof of this? I had a winning streak of 3 games just by using a Tau Empire army that included 3 full squads of Vespids. Latest one being against BT ;).


-Kai-Itza-
 
#21 ·
I don't play as an MEQ player but I find that flamers are constantly overlooked
Most effective mechanised or otherwise mobile (for good template placement) - a well positioned template is the equal of about a half dozen bolter marines. Plus the bonuses against swarms, cover, buildings, multiple units, etc.

The do generally compete for space with meltaguns though and are seriously underrepresented in my local group (other than my SoB and their 'bloody flamers'). The increasing number of non-MEQ players (especially the two nids) may encourage some new lists and styles ... then again flamers arn't up to dealing with T6 MCs.
 
#22 ·
The new Tyranids aren't OP. Sure, they have 6-wound T6 MCs as troop choices, but they end up costing 240+ points (inluding the prerequisites to field them). Of course I've seen one of those create more than 400 points of free troops over a single game, turning a 1500-point army into a 1900 one. The avergage stands at around 100 extra points per game. And Tyranids can reliably kill 200 points of enemy troops with a 130 point one each turn, starting the first turn it Deepstrikes from reserves. With safety drop pod rules of course. Plus all MCs can now Deepstrike, most with safe DS rules.

Still, I stand by my point. The fact I play Tyranids has nothing to do with it.
 
#24 ·
I've read through the new nids book. And as usual, the new kid always has some nasty stuff. THis time around though, the silver lining that stops them from OP-ness is the fact that everything in the list is actually able to be shot to death now. Aside from the specials, no model I've seen exceeds T6 or a 3+ save, highly increasing their vulnerabilities to missiles and lascannons. It's possible to stock up on flexible anti tank weapons from 4th ed that are much longer ranged than melta and still use them effectively. Besides, in a pinch, missile launchers can still shoot frags to take out swarms. I honestly really like what they did with the new book. It's not an issue of whether you can kill the monsters storming at you, it's whether or not you can kill enough of them, which is really what facing nids should be about.
 
#26 · (Edited)
*reappears from behind a conveniently placed Shadow in the Warp*

Just got the new codex today (and some gargoyles, they're beautiful!) and I reckon I could probably do some really nasty stuff with these new rules. Now, luckily for anyone I'll be playing against, I'm sticking to my plans and having themed armies (all 6 of them...) so they'll have their obvious weaknesses and won't be intentionally overpowered. I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on some of those new plastic raveners though, especially with how nasty they can be now...

I still doubt I'll be around much for the next week or so, still got exams to deal with. After that I should hopefully be able to return to my former not-so-activeness and maybe, just maybe, get some models finished for once.
 
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