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i've been wanting to get this off my chest for a while and now that i'm extremely tired and bored i shall do just that!
the concept: this is a beta gaming system for games workshop products via the use of computers
The system is quite simple: translate the model game onto the computer, this does not mean dawn of war style but actually putting the 40k board game as true as physically possible into a computer game. naturally all material is protected by removing the ability to use print screen/copy whilst using the application.
the first stage is simple enough, but where i feel the real challenge of the project would lie is in how a model company would be able to attach their products to the computer without losing the modeling side of the business and make money whilst beta testing. My strategy to solve this problem is best explained in a hypothetical situation where this ultimate product is hitting the market initially.
Introduction phase: all people pre ordering the WOP (warhammer online package) instantly have all the units in all armies included into the cost of say... $100.
Commercial phase: When wop is released all new models and codecies have barcodes added to them. The bar code for models places the unit into your "online forces" and codecies limit the armies you can face (if i only have an eldar codex attached to my account i can only fight against eldar).
Beta testing: when a codex comes out on beta anyone pre ordering the rule book can use the entire army assortment of troops for beta testing purposes and once the official rule book is released only the rule book addition remains (your units list would still be valid and updated to the latest rules)
there would most likely be no need to add a monthly cost to this as the regular release of rule books/buying models should damn well be enough to keep it going!
This concept isn't new by any means and the tech is available so honestly if they are willing to make a space marine movie i don't see why a potential hobby integration point should be ignored.
Last edited by Gintoki; March 25th, 2010 at 12:10.
What about people who have been playing so long we have 4+ armies of decent size.
I rarely need to buy anything. I get something for my Birthday or for Xmas or for Fathers Day only.
But if I get to upload all my old armies I have enough units to ensure I never need buy another upgrade again, except the odd codex maybe.
I would love to see a fully realised 40k board game online, but its not going to happen while GW is a model selling company
Arch Overfiend & Grand Despot
I currently play:
Doom Eagle Space Marines
Hive Fleet Omega Tyranids
Goff Ork Boyz(dead)
Tau of O'me
Inquisitorial Xeno Hunters
and my attempted foray into fantasy
'Dark Angel Green' Dark Elves in need of fluff
Why would GW bankrupt themselves in this way?
Their entire revenue comes from selling the physical products to TT gamers and modellers, if you could buy the lot for £50 they'd be mahoosively buggering their own business model, such as it is.
Not to mention that one of the main selling point of the game is the social aspect that takes place in stores and clubs, and removing or decreasing that aspect would be a huuuge mistake.
Last edited by Da Mighty Camel; March 25th, 2010 at 22:11.
ok maybey the idea didn't come across properly, buying the models gives you the code to allow you to use those miniatures online. Essentially this would be a supplement to the 40k model game not a replacement.
i really don't see how diversifying their modeling business could really determent their financial position because if anything people would start spending more money on games workshop products.
So you would buy the game... then buy the model you want to use in the game... take the code and use that online, probably share it with others and swap with people for different codes... so in the end it comes down to who can look up codes on different sites.
Whereas now you buy the model, you build it as you want, you paint it how you want, you use it in squads of different sizes depending on how many you buy, you play against your friends where you can compare tactics, painting techniques and base the model as you like, have it look how you like.
Online you get a stock standard model, the prices of models go up as a team of software developers has to make systems for EACH AND EVERY MODEL. A team has to make this program which is essentially completely pointless and fruitless in every aspect.
A movie is completely different from making a dummy system that nobody except those in the stix who have nobody within an hours drive of them to communicate and play with. An expectation on a system such as this to work demonstrates a complete lack in economic understanding as well as understanding workings of technological undertakings.
Fantasy: Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Beastmen and Tomb Kings.
LotR: Misty Mountains and Rohan
Id welcome a computer game, it should be free or same price as a regular computer game though with all armies included, otherwise everyone would just pirate it.
If people would play this over the real thing its their choice, I think most people would play it in addition to the real thing, it would allow for more battles and for people to practice new stuff, try out armies they don't own any miniatures of and better plan their miniature purchases.
Also what I think what would be one of the best things if not the best thing with a computer game would be that it would make it a lot easier to learn the rules for newer players. You could have tool tips on everything so that players could see every rule in play when they are moving their troops, charging an enemy or shooting a tank, etc.
Thats my two cents on the topic.
A game such as that will never happen while GW control Warhammer. They would lose a LOT of money and seeing as half the hobby is about Painting/assembling/socialising, you'd be killing half the hobby off!
I have two words, to deal with both of Gintoki's posts, respectively:
Vassal and Hackers
The idea would be great, I'll admit. However, the game would probably be cost prohibitive.
As Bullfrog said- GW would have to price the game to make up for the loss it would take on it's modeling side, even if you had to buy a box of tactical marines just to get the code to use them. They would probably charge a monthly fee in order to do that.
Think of the extra items that GW sells:
specialist dice (artillery, scatter, etc)
player aids (the ill-fated laser pointer, their horrible tape measures, etc)
Furthermore, they would effectively halve their sales. Players would purchase models, only to cut out the user code and then sell the sprues on eBay to those players who are interested in the TT aspect of the hobby. If I buy a battleforce for $180, grab the codes and then resell it on ebay to a TT gamer for $2, GW loses the $180 that player would have spent on a set of their own, codes or otherwise.
A site did exist, and perhaps still does, called Vassal, where players could play against one another online using exactly the same play system which you have described. However, GW has likely nixed it because they didn't own it, and it was allowing the exact situation which I was talking about, with players choosing not to purchase GW models, and play with the Vassal skins instead.
Now, for the part about Hackers-
I don't condone the practice, but how many times has your friend loaned you a copy of his awesome new computer game and you went online, found a torrent site, and downloaded a keygen for that game, so that you could get through the security codes and download the game to your PC? How many times have you considered calling a company and requesting a new Key because "you cant find yours". How many times have you downloaded cracked software?
It's bad enough that I can download PDFs of every Codex and Armybook ever made- but imagine being able to download a Warlord Titan for free. Some of you are chomping at the bit even as I say this. People already do it with resin casts, but to actually "save" money by doing so, requires you to purchase the first model, and then create about 2 more: 1 to validate the first, and a second to validate the cost of the time, resin, and tools required.
The only profitable program like this, in existence, is Wizards' "MTG Online". The system works basically as you described your idea working in the first post- players pay for cards online, download them, and then use them online. Here is why this system works:
No cross contamination- although you can play to win bids to large tournaments, you cannot actually attend them via MTG:O. If you purchase a $2 card online, you'll be buying the $2 "in the flesh" to attend.
No 'support' sales- the only thing which Wizards sells other than the cards, are the silly little card protectors. There's practically no loss if those go unsold, as they are rather cheap
Massive Profits- cardgames always feature HUGE markups. Sure you only pay about $6 for a pack of cards, but that pack of cards only costs about $.6 to manufacture. Furthermore, if you want one of those ultra-rare cards, well, someone has to buy enough packs to find it. And because of a thriving side market, there are tons of people who will buy entire sets of cards in hopes that they will one day be worth something.
Per card prices- MTG relies on a 60+ card deck, so people are always buying tons of stuff. There is no limit to how much you can buy, no limit to how big your deck can be, or how many expensive and overpowered cards you can have. Think about it- most people collect their playable 2k army, a little "sideboard" of units to use against specific foes, and then stop collecting for a while. Not true with MTG players. They will collect on a far more regular basis, as MTG offers few goals for your collection other than "get them all".
And that is why MTG:O works. And because GW games function on a different level, and at a different complexity, it is why 40k:O would fail.
This is almost identical to the model magic the gathering online uses and was a fairly big success as far as I know. Wizards of the coast is even more money hungry than GW has ever been so I doubt they would allow a major failure to live on.
All of captainsarathai's "why this wouldn't work for 40k" points has a lot of flaws it from where I'm sitting.
Major tournaments arent the major source of revenue for warhammer, and you can get physical cards to play physical games of mtg from the online purchases. So I would absolutely say there is "cross-contamination" in the mtg version.
WotC is a huge company (even within their mtg brand) that sells all sorts of things from novels, computer games, to figures, not to mention their entire D&D line that they now own.
Most people I know that played mtg bought a starter deck and a few booster packs (maybe $30) at a time and played with that for quite a while until the next set came out. Only crazy people buy pack after pack after pack to fill their checklist or to get every rare(buying them from people that have the rare is a lot cheaper anyway). The people that have the money to spend like that on a card game have the money to buy huge amounts of 40k models online and in the physical world.
No one has any idea that this would fail or succeed until it is tried. From where I'm sitting it would only allow more profits, but how great those profits were I have no idea. It could make a few thousand or it could be a new revolution in the hobby to bring in thousands of new players which this game desperately needs. Embracing the internet is the future of most things and it might just be time to make it work.
Just as the OP said, it would be a supplement to earn them money from people that don't have access to a gaming store or don't care to start up the modeling aspect of the hobby. They would make more money by accessing new customers while retaining the old. This would not in any way "destroy" the physical aspect of the hobby just as there are plenty of physical magic the gathering tournaments worldwide. The physical part of the hobby is what draws new people to the game every day and I doubt it would disappear because of ease of use of an online game.
Last edited by paregoric_HAL; March 26th, 2010 at 06:19.