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I am having a bit of a hobby crisis at the moment concerning my army choice for Warhammer Fantasy.
You see, i want to do a Chaos army. Not a Chaos Daemons army, not a Warriors of Chaos army and not a Beasts of Chaos army either... No, i want to do a Hordes of Chaos army.
You see, the original fluff behind chaos for almost 7 editions of Warhammer Fantasy was that chaos armies were composed of units from almost every single race in the known world, and i loved that idea. In the earlier editions, you would have units of chaos followers that consisted of elves, dwarves, men, orks and sometimes even goblins! You could even get undead champions, how cool is that?
What always appealed to me about chaos was how universally diverse an army could be, you could have a great mixed army of daemonic and mortal units, you could add units from the Beasts of Chaos army book and you were even given permission to use certain units from almost any other army books using the dogs of war rules.
THAT is how a chaos army should be, and how they should of kept it. I was really dissapionted when they just divided the armies of chaos up into all these smaller army lists just so they could sell more over priced, glossy covered books. Before anyone shoots me clear out of my high perch on that comment remember this, if you wanted to you could still create a army that was ALL daemons, or ALL mortals or ALL beastmen (although admittedly you still had to buy 2 books though but at £12 each at the time that wasnt too bad.)
SO, how can one fix this? I know that GW stores and tournaments would not allow me to use 3 different army books in one FOC (only in Storm of Magic games would this be allowed) however i know in friendly games at a gaming club a exception would be made. So i suppose that is a start...
The army i want to make comprises of Mortals, Monsters and Daemons all bound together by the universal worship of Nurgle the plague god, and i dont just want it to be a counts as army either, because that is not the point (although i would have some counts as models in units to make them look more diverse E.G. having a bunch of models from different races in mortal units, all painted in the same colour scheme).
Please feel free to share your thoughts on this matter, and if you have any thoughts on other armies please do contribute them. I have a couple of things i would like to say about other armies but i think that is enough ranting for a while.
Sometimes the best defense is a good offense... Wait, what?
Well, having played for as long as I have, I can tell you that you were ONLY allowed to run Daemons, Warriors, and Beastmen together in a list, as DoW rules only gave you access to a few regiments from their supplement, not every book.
Personally, I really like the three separate books, over the single huge one. I was getting into Chaos literally just before they released the statement about going into separate books, and I have to say that it made the army a lot more appealing. Yes, in the Hordes book you could go with just a single race- all mortals for example- but that certainly didn't mean that you should. The army was meant to work together as a whole- you needed those Daemons or Beastmen to fill out particular roles in your army, and going all Mortals meant that you were only handicapping yourself.
You can still field Undead champions, unless you mean that you want the "Cause Fear, Lose Wounds for Combat Resolution, Open to pain from Light Spells" kind of Undead. Just plop your old Harry the Hammer model in the front rank and call him your champ.
You said that you don't want a "counts-as" army, but I see no reason why you couldn't just toss in a few choice models from the other lines. Instead of the Daemon Prince, just put out a Great Daemon of Nurgle under the same rules. Use the SkullTaker as an Exalted, Fiends of Slaanesh as Marauder Cavalry, Gors as Marauders.
Nobody who wants a serious game is going to let you field a combined army. There was a pretty good article in one of the 40k books explaining why certain weapons cost more in certain squads. I believe the example was the Move-or-Fire Rocket Launcher. It cost less in a Tactical Squad than it did in a Devastator Squad. Why? Because it wasn't as effective in the Tactical Squad- to fire the rocket, you had to keep the entire squad stationary, when they're meant to be mobile, and you were usually targetting vehicles that you bolters weren't going to scratch. In the Devastator Squad, the whole squad has to sit still to fire their weapons, and they're probably all gunning for the same thing- so instead of 1 shot that might hit, you've got 4 going downrange at the same target.
Take that mentality and apply it to a mixed army. A unit like Flamers would cost double in a Warriors army. Do you know how much Warriors wish they could have a dedicated ranged regiment? Or Pink Horrors? We have the armor and the bodies to defend a regiment like that, and it fills a role that we otherwise don't have, while the Daemons are pretty flexible with or without the Flamers and Horrors. Warriors pay 185pts to give ONE regiment the ability to outflank, but you want to include Beastmen that can do it at will?
Wait until 'Storm of Magic' comes out, and go from there. It will include rules for playing big games, and that would be an excellent time to have a collection of all 3 armies so that you can field them together. Even just 1500pts of each would be enough to play 4500pt Storm games.
Thank you for replying so quickly! You raise some interesting a valid points in your argument, although i feel you missed the point of my post, which is probably due to a error on my behalf because of my dyslexia (i find it difficult sometimes to get the meaning across in my writing.)
What i was trying to say was that i liked the idea of having both daemons and mortals in the same army, and having the addition of monsters to it from the beasts of chaos book was a also a plus, as well as the dogs of war units from other books.
Now i look back at it i realise that mentioning the undead champions thing was probably not the best idea, although it was still a cool idea from the Realm of Chaos RPG books. I was trying to give an example of the diversity of the old chaos fluff.
The ideal thing for me would be to be able to use the old Hordes of Chaos army book to build my army, i realise i would not be able to use any beasts of chaos due to the book that went with HoC has been replaced and is no longer available. Although that doesnt stop me from using Dogs of War units from other army books that are from the same edition as it.
The problem with this is that i still would not be able to use this in tournament of at my local store.
Thank you for your comment and insight into the subject. On a side note how long have you been in the hobby now? Nearly 8 years for me, crikey time flies...
Sometimes the best defense is a good offense... Wait, what?
I think you are missing th point mate.if you do a combined chaos army you will be unbeatable.th books now are balanced as if you are only using one of th three chaos races,to have options on them all would be too much.
It'd be like me fielding a dwarf gunline with 3 big empire helberdeer units,some sword masters and a slanmage in a big bunker...it would be daft.
I think some of th proxie suggestions given above where a good compromise...
Abdula- he was talking about running the Hordes book, the book prior to the current Warriors and Daemons books. For Warriors, that means that the book is essentially two updates too old (there was a WD update before our book), and the entire book is from 6th edition or earlier if I recall. The book is far from unbeatable. There was a guy who stopped into my local two or three times that I had some games against. There wasn't a list that I have that didn't table him or come close.
The new Warriors book is just so much better- the points values are more in line with the newer editions, the options are almost all a great deal better, and the army is all around better written. Daemons have become simply disgusting, they're a well written book but their points values are way too low and they have enough options that you're bound to find a cheesy combo somehow. Beastmen are probably the weakest of the updates, but even their book has been expanded to include new units, awesome new rules, and plenty of fun opportunities for both gamers and modelers.
If you're looking for pickup games in your local, you'll probably have a hard time getting them with the old book. A lot of people may not be over-the-top competitive, but they still don't want to play against an illegal army (which is what you'd be fielding at this point). For playing games with your friends, you're more than welcome to use whatever book you want, or no books at all. There are lots of times that I still use my old High Elf book in friendly games just because I miss the Honors and core cavalry.
Mr Twingy- I've been playing this game for far too long. 12 years and counting.
Mr. Twingy, I am in the same boat. I started Chaos with the Hordes of Chaos book (like a year after the storm of chaos campaign) and had a HUGE combined army. By the time the hordes book split and you could no longer combine with Beastmen, I had around 3500pts of mortals, 1000 of daemons and 2000 of Beastmen. I had a few list that I could play and I felt the overall fluff is better than it is today. For example if your lord had mark of nurgle you had to have your units take the mark as well, if they took another mark then you had to get a hero with the new mark to represent the champion of that god. The old rules made it slightly more difficult to make lists but I feel that it captured the fluff of chaos better. Also I really want to do the same thing as you but with the old Legion of the Damned army list. Not simply IG painted Chaos like but the actual list.
But as to your actual question you are going to be more at the whim of your opponents than anything. Using the previous Hordes and Beastmen book will have disadvantages. Points are higher, warriors only have one attack and heavy armor and more. though for modeling purposes it would look really cool! I still occasionly look through old white dwarfs that have the combined chaos armies.
Repainting Orks not sure how many points yet
Warriors of Chaos shelved until further notice
I think the answer to whether you can have a combined army nowadays is, unfortunately: you can't.
The only alternatives I can see is either making your own homebrew army book (which you'd probably only be able to use with friends but might be quite a cool excercise in itself to try and make it balanced) or going down the 'counts as' route which you're obviously not keen on (beastmen models as marauders, Fiends of slaanesh as chaos knights using the Warriors book etc)
PLAN CLAN MAN!!
He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man- S. Johnson
Wouldn't it (outside of tournaments) be possible to field several small allied armies in according with the brb allies chart? That way, you'd basically be 'buying' the tactical advantages of three armies, with a smaller window of unit selection each.
The Silver Knights of Tor Adrac (He): 26/2/4
The Spears of Slaanesh (Woc): 7/2/5
Battlegroup Chalybso (GK): 7/3/3
I started with Hordes, and I always wanted an all daemon army, but it wasn't diverse enought to be competitive. When they split the factions up it made the armies more complex and attractive to play with. I do miss the random craziness of having an everything but army, and I feel it is the best direction to split them. It makes the game world bigger and lets you do so much more with individual units.