The Special Character Enigma

[Grungydan]

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 26 2004, 06:20
Because the strategy is less than half of the hobby to most people.

Against an unpainted army a game takes on overtones of humouring the other player - if you play with unpainted minis because you want to play at all costs then hell for those people who can't afford miniatures then why not just play with card counters? Going down that road is missing out on more than 75% of the hobby.

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Keep in mind that there are still people that haven't been brainwashed by GW into thinking that a mini doesn't function correctly without paint. Try to keep in mind that the "hobby" as GW defines it is actually a combination of several hobbies:

-modeling
-painting
-creative writing (in some cases)
-strategy gaming
-tabletop miniature gaming

Now, if someone wants to enjoy playing 40K or FB, but they either don't like bothering with painting, or maybe they don't bother with fluff, that's fine.
The fact that "they" won't let you use an unpainted figure/unit/army is just so you'll feel obligated to buy their paints, their brushes, their flock, their static grass.

Sure, you can wrap up these things into one and call it "the GW hobby", but keep in mind that not everyone does, or is obligated to. I enjoy all of the hobbies contained within, but I certainly wouldn't tell someone "I'm not going to play you because you don't like to paint." I'd be out of a game, I'd look like a pompous ass, and I'd feel like a brainwashed monkey instead of a human being.

Back on topic: I don't mind the special characters from the book, really. I would rather the player was using them for story reasons than for great stats, but either way it's just one more thing to kill.

[greymeister]

I pretty much agree with Grungydan on both issues, and usually the people I play against who aren't anal-retentive are just happy to get a shot at killing the characters too.

[karantalsis]

Originally posted by Jack Blood+Oct 26 2004, 10:20--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Blood &#064; Oct 26 2004, 10:2</div><div class='quotemain'>Because the strategy is less than half of the hobby to most people.

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Thats unsubstantiated I think, I don&#39;t believe you as I know a good deal of people for whomt hat is untrue in fact in my experience the opposite is tru "the strategy is more than half the hobby to most people." but as I haven&#39;t done a valid study I can only say this is in my experience and not in general.

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 26 2004, 10:20
Against an unpainted army a game takes on overtones of humouring the other player - if you play with unpainted minis because you want to play at all costs then hell for those people who can&#39;t afford miniatures then why not just play with card counters? Going down that road is missing out on more than 75% of the hobby.

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What if someone CAN&#39;T paint, because for example they don&#39;t have the fine motor co-ordination. Or really hates painting because they find it boring and tedious?

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 26 2004, 10:20
If you haven&#39;t painted then your army isn&#39;t ready. If your army isn&#39;t ready then whether you care or not and whether you get an opponent or not you should ask yourself whether you are being fair to the other player who undoubtedly does care and undoubtedly will be disappointed.

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Why will your opponent be dissapointed that you are not as skilled/fast at painting as him, I believe, based on my experience that most people would rather play a game than set up their army and turn away anyone whos&#39; army isn&#39;t fully painted. You can move further down this road and say that anyone who deosn&#39;t paint and write as well as you doesn&#39;t have a finished army. Maybe you should ask yourself whether your being fair to people who can&#39;t paint so fast/well. I paint maybe 2-4 models a week. When I&#39;m not busy. And 1-2 when I am. My 500 point force has around 35 models, thats 9-35 weeks work to paint (proabably took me about 25 weeks in actuality) so by your reasoning I shouldn&#39;t have played ANY games fro the first 6 months of being interested in the hobby? Thats ridiculous.

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 26 2004, 10:20
Its not that cut and dried though most people build their army up in sections anyway and so painting becomes irrelevant - if you have painted 500 points then play 500 pt battles - if you have painted 1000 pts then play that much - you don&#39;t have to buy 2500pts of lead and then whinge about how you don&#39;t have time to paint them.

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See above it take s me forever to paint even a small force. My 1500 point army (now fully painted) has taken me 2.5 years to paint. I don&#39;t think it is reasonable to expect me to play no games of that size for that length of time.

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 26 2004, 10:20
But don&#39;t take my word for this - most tournament organisers as you have realised don&#39;t take undecoated models as an excuse for an army they have to be painted and in three colours at least as far as I have seen. They have seen the reality of what the game and the hobby as a whole should be. Okay that&#39;s an ideal I admit but its not an outrageous one and most people manage to keep the par.

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No they&#39;ve seen the reality of the best way to make money as was said by Grungydan above.

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 26 2004, 10:20
Fluff? Well it a lot the same except you can play without a backstory and most likely no one will ever know unlike the painting issue. If you use special characters without good reason and wantonly though that is a blatant declaration of a lack of creativity.

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So what if someone isn&#39;t creative? Thats a reason to not play them? To be insulted by them? What if they&#39;re just not good at creative writing. Personally I think I am, but I know people who hate it, so why should they be made to dod it because YOU like it???

<!--QuoteBegin-Jack Blood@Oct 26 2004, 10:20
It is disappointing to people who care about that sort of thing - and there are a lot more people about who do care about it than those who are just seeking the best and most elite army with which to &#39;own&#39; their opponents.

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I don&#39;t think so. I don&#39;t think most of the things you&#39;ve talked about have anything to do with wanting the most powerfula rmy they&#39;re about enjoying the game and I think that if someone is not small minded and biased against people who gain enjoyment from different aspects of the hobby to themselves then they need not be dissapointed that someone doesn&#39;t have immaculate fluff and paint jobs. Personally I find it more of a detrimant to my gaming experience if someone has a set of beautifully painted miniatures and great fluff, but can&#39;t play his way out of a wet paper bag. I want a challenge from my opponents strategically, sure pretty figures are nice adn I wish I could paint better (and think I am slowly learning to) but they are not essential.

[Predator]

Its great to have special characters with your won made up fluff. And having special characters on the battle feild make the games more interesting. I find the challenge to blast the buggers fun and special characters are fun to use too. I play tau so not that many "great" special characters to use...

[Baratos]

What I enjoy the most is modelling and playing. Truth is I suck at painting--every time I play at least one person recoils in horror at my army. I also think a shining metal ravener is more intimidating and better looking as is than painted.

Lastly, on special characters: I dont like them, not because of fluff or anything, simply because I would much rather design something so it fits perfectly in with the rest of my army. Since I play Tyranids I can lovingly consign each and every model to its own little niche

[greymeister]

Originally posted by Barafiel@Oct 26 2004, 18:26
What I enjoy the most is modelling and playing. Truth is I suck at painting--every time I play at least one person recoils in horror at my army. I also think a shining metal ravener is more intimidating and better looking as is than painted.

Lastly, on special characters: I dont like them, not because of fluff or anything, simply because I would much rather design something so it fits perfectly in with the rest of my army. Since I play Tyranids I can lovingly consign each and every model to its own little niche

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I guess I just don&#39;t buy a unit to only ever be THAT unit, I have at least 3 different 1,000 point army lists that I use and each catachan infantry guy has probably been a veteran, a grenadier and a regular platoon member. Only a few modules like the HQ and sergeant models do I use consistently for the same thing. That means that my army adapts to whatever theme the current list is using. Therefore nothing ever "fits in perfectly with my army." I mold my army to a particular fit I want.

[Grungydan]

Originally posted by greymeister@Oct 26 2004, 14:59
I guess I just don&#39;t buy a unit to only ever be THAT unit, I have at least 3 different 1,000 point army lists that I use and each catachan infantry guy has probably been a veteran, a grenadier and a regular platoon member. Only a few modules like the HQ and sergeant models do I use consistently for the same thing. That means that my army adapts to whatever theme the current list is using. Therefore nothing ever "fits in perfectly with my army." I mold my army to a particular fit I want.

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I feel you on this one. I&#39;m building an army that&#39;s bits and pieces of the armies that were stationed in a planetary system that was wiped out. The "special" character is my HSO, Rogers. He united the remnants of the armies with his courage and charisma, and now all of these bits and pieces are fiercely loyal to him.

Basically, it means lots of different painting schemes, and I know eventually that they&#39;ll all change and develop. I don&#39;t want to even think about how many times some of these guys are going to get promoted/demoted over time .

[9 Iron]

Not to be too nostalgic, I&#39;d like to talk a little about the history of the game to help frame this special character enigma as part of the evolution of 40k. I don&#39;t want this to be a documentary or something, but there&#39;s just some weird stuff in the history of the game that is really funny, yet no one talks about them anymore.

I started 40k at a time when there were no special characters. One of the first special characters in 40k came about when the Space Wolves had a major facelift in a White Dwarf. The Wolf Lord Ragnar Blackmane was among the first unique personalities to be released with actual special rules...so he&#39;s in serious need of a new miniature. With the special characters came a more in-depth look about the armies they represented; it was sort of like VH1 - Behind the Music.

At that point, the main thing differentiating one Space Marine chapter from another was their colour scheme; there was a few references to specific chapters in the general history of 40k, like how the Primarch of the Blood Angels broke the back of a Bloodthirster over his knee and that he faced Horus the Warmaster, but that&#39;s about it. The Space Wolves were...well, their other claim to fame was that their Primarch had two wolves.

Fun Fact - At this early point, the race that had the most detail among its different cultures was, strangely enough, the Orks. There were 6 distinct tribes, each with relatively detailed backgrounds, their own special rules, then there were outcasts known as Freebooterz like Ork Genestealer Hybrid cults and Khorne Stormboyz. In fact, even before Ragnar, the very, very first special character was Warlord Ghazghkull Thraka.

I swear, when I started, my friends and I spent an afternoon deciding which Space Marine armies we should start. Years of alcohol abuse have warped my memory, but the conversation went something like this.

"Dude, I&#39;m going to make a Space Wolves army. It&#39;s going to be sweet."

"Cool. Hey, what&#39;s so special about the Space Wolves anyway?"

"Their Primarch had two wolves, man. That&#39;s like, I don&#39;t know, Romulus and Remus or something."

"Sweet&#33; I&#39;ll take Ultramarines...they have a giant U on their shoulder pads&#33;"

Now, when the re-vamped version of the Space Wolves came out with the special characters, that was like the coolest thing that ever happened since the Sega Genesis because we got this whole new look at a chapter that we thought we knew. Now, in addition to the Primarch having two wolves, we saw Ragnar and, threw him, learned a lot of the private history of the chapter.

For example, when we found out that Ragnar was considered blessed because he killed a mighty beast during a hunting ritual that a Space Wolf initiate must pass in order to become a marine; we didn&#39;t even know there was a hunt&#33;

The effect this new knowledge was that it ushered in a Second Rennaisance. Just as mankind had come out of a dark age of technology, so it was with us the players. We had our own ideas for fluffs at the time, but the little pieces of history here and there were the seeds to much greater ideas. My Space Wolf friend started decorating his Rhinos with bits of skeletons and wolves from the Fantasy range to represent the trophies of the Marines from their first hunt.

The greatest thing about the special characters was that, in many ways, they personified the values and traits of their respective armies. Ragnar wasn&#39;t just a Space Wolf, he was THE archetypal Space Wolf. He represented the feral nature of the Space Wolves, their strengths and flaws and everything in between. He was trained by Ulrik the Slayer, whose helmet relic was said to have been worn by Leman Russ himself, and fought alongside Bjorn the Fell-Handed, who came from the days of the Primarch. In one figure, a whole proud tradition is represented, but it is also implicit that there are many others just like him, that he just happens to be one of the poster childs for the Space Wolves.

Moral of this long, meandering and sometimes senile story - The point I want to put forward to you that special characters are great, but as cool as they are, their greatest value is not in and of themselves; it is in the ideas they bring. Use them, don&#39;t use them, it&#39;s a relatively moot point compared to the fact that these figures serve as just an example, a touchstone, for a player&#39;s own thoughts. It is ultimately a waste of points and money to get special character thinking he would guarentee victory, however, as they seldom a definitive advantage in game mechanics.

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Okay, having said all that, I&#39;d like to respond to a few lines of thinking about whether or not to use special characters.

Special characters should not be overused because they are special, after all

I can totally see the validity of this perspective and I comletely respect those that share this view. Many of the special characters are plot hooks and they are, by definition, unique. For example, Abaddon&#39;s pretty inexpendable because he&#39;s probably the only one right now who could unite all the Traitor Legions for a Black Crusade.

At the same time, I have this impression that Abaddon&#39;s default state is one of perpetual war; when he&#39;s not actively killing someone, he&#39;s planning to kill someone in the very, very near future. Even between Black Crusades, I can totally imagine him fighting the Imperium very regularly because of all his hate, he&#39;ll fight other races just because his hate just spills over towards them, then he&#39;ll fight other Chaos Space Marines just to keep them in line.

I feel that the same mentality applies for a lot of armies in 40k. Conventional wisdom suggests the highest ranking, most famous leaders to stay away from the battlefield as they are not expendable. However, figures like General Ursarkar Creed of the Imperial Guard got to their position precisely because they were utterly willing to fight on the frontlines, so I would not consider it too strange to confront him in battle.

With cases like Ragnar Blackmane, it&#39;s even less surprising; even though he is a Wolf Lord of a whole Space Wolf company, there are only 12 companies in total, and he&#39;s often described as the most ambitious of them; I can totally see him volunteering for every single mission the chapter has to undertake, so there&#39;s a decent enough chance to confront him if I&#39;m taking on the Space Wolves.

Now, with gods of the C&#39;tan like the Nightbringer, I do think it&#39;s tacky to use them too regularly, but even then I don&#39;t mind people using the figure even for a relatively small battle; the Necrons are mysterious, they may have some hidden agenda even in a skirmish.

On the other hand, Commissar Yarrick only returned to active duty to fight his old nemesis, Ghazghkull Thraka in the most recent Armageddon War. Whereas you can see the Ork waging war everywhere, I would really respect it if other people wouldn&#39;t ask Yarrick into battle needlessly; he&#39;s like 80 years old by now or something.

Many of the special characters are leaders. In fact, they are more than that; they are legends. However, to reach their status, they had to fight their way there. I can imagine a scene where a Space Marine hero, having won 10,000 victories, is summoned to Terra so that a High Lord can congratulate him. "Good job on your 10,000 victories," the Lord says, "Your dedication to the Emperor has earned you a 5 minute cigarette break. Done? Good. Now get back out there and get 100,000 victories." I expect to see special characters relatively often, and I don&#39;t think it&#39;s out of line for people to use them at all.

People should create their own characters instead of using the special ones

As I said, I came from a time when there weren&#39;t any special characters. I&#39;m used to making my own commanders and have a great deal of fun doing it. Part of the reason I come back to 40k after a gap of months or years is that this game allows me the greatest amount of customisation and personalisation. I play real-time strategy computer games, which is just as fun and actually a lot cheaper than buying a full army, but I always come back to 40k just so I can create my own army with my own characters.

Just because that&#39;s what I do, it doesn&#39;t mean I think it&#39;s necessarily right. I smoke half a pack of cigarettes a day and I actually don&#39;t want other people to have the same habit. It&#39;s just what I do, and I happen to like cigarettes. The same applies to this philosophy. Making a wholly different army with customised commanders is indeed a time consuming process, but that&#39;s how I personally get my kicks.

I like to see new things in armies

I also like to see innovation and personalisation in my opponents&#39; armies; no one wants to see the same thing every time. I reckon this is common with most people.

The problem with taking special characters from this perspective is that, technically, they offer nothing new. We all pretty much know what to expect as the special characters have an established history and cannot change their wargear, so in that sense it&#39;s pretty predictable.

I do not subscribe to the theory that special characters are by definition generic. Even though you cannot change them per se, you can shape an army around them that&#39;s as creative and innovative as any other, as previous posts mentioned. However, my problem is that I don&#39;t see this sort of thing happen enough.

To cite an example, how would I like to see someone adding something new to the Nightbringer of the Necrons? Well, off the top of my head, the Nightbringer is this awesome grim reaper figure and is one of my absolute favourite miniatures ever. To complement his awesome presence, I would, say, get a unit of Flayed Ones, get some green stuff to do hoods over their heads much like their god, then paint that and the bits of "flesh" over their bodies so that it looks like they are wearing tattered robes similar to that of their deity. It&#39;s a small, simple thing that can beautifully tie the army together, but I&#39;ve yet to see anything like it done, and I&#39;ve seen the Nightbringer 3 times already.

What really irks me about special characters

I&#39;m a pretty reasonable person. It&#39;s perfectly fine for someone to use a special character against me; my reasons are above. I don&#39;t mind unpainted miniatures; painting takes time, you&#39;ll get around to it when you get around to it. What I absolutely hate are the Last Minute Refrigerator Proxies models (aka LaMeR Proxies).

For those of you that have not face LaMeR Proxies, they are the models your opponents use when they want to use some sort of very special unit, like the Avatar of the Eldar, without anything that even resembles the character. So, they pull something out of the kitchen, like a roll of kitchen towel or a jar, and pretty soon you find yourself fighting Heinz, the Ketchup Handed God of the Eldar.

In my time, I&#39;ve also fought Lord Leinenkugel, the beer bottle-shaped Daemon Prince of Lager and a Vindicator tank that looks like (and, in fact, is) a bottle of Johnson and Johnson&#39;s hand lotion on its side.

The absolute worst, worst thing is when people put these LaMeR proxies on the tabletops as their model, then uses them in the middle of the game for their intended purpose. It&#39;s like I am trying to take a shot at the beer bottle that is acting as my opponent&#39;s Daemon Prince, but then he picks it out, takes a drink, and puts it in a completely different place than where the Lord Leinenkugel was before, and then we spend a half-hour arguing about where the miniature was supposed to be.

Originally posted by Barafiel@Oct 26 2004, 19:26
What I enjoy the most is modelling and playing. Truth is I suck at painting--every time I play at least one person recoils in horror at my army. I also think a shining metal ravener is more intimidating and better looking as is than painted.

Barafiel, I feel your pain, bro. When I started out, I was the absolute worst painter amongst my circle of Games Workshop faithful until I received a really good piece of advice. I want to mention what was said to me in case it may help you. The advice was as follows:

"Keep it simple and stay with the fundamentals."

When I started out, my bad painting was a vicious cycle. Since I was so bad, I was desperate for some trick, some silver bullet that I could make up to help me, which only made things worse. The best thing is to go back to the basic painting guides, doing the very simple things. Very soon, things will just "click"; I went from world&#39;s worst painter to a pretty decent one without going through any intermediate steps in between.

I am embarassed to so rashly give unsolicitated advice, but I&#39;m afraid that people are encouraging you to just "practice, practice, practice&#33;" Sometimes, that&#39;ll just ingrain the mistakes in your style. If you are in a situation like me, unlearn those errors and start from scratch, going back to the A-B-C painting steps in the GW website.

[Grungydan]

Nice post 9 Iron. (Y)

[Jack Blood]

Well, without going through the points raised by Greymeister, Grungydan et al. I&#39;ll summarize:

Some of your issues are interesting, some are whining but all are basically just excusing shortcomings on your own behalfs.

If you can&#39;t paint then practice until you can ( - with deference to 9 iron if you know the principles of painting then practice is the only way that you will eventually get a neat paint job at the least.) - if you don&#39;t have time to practice then just do the best job you can - don&#39;t dare to think that &#39;because you can&#39;t do it (well or at all)&#39; that you don&#39;t need to bother because that is no excuse at all. People don&#39;t expect GD quality jobs or even neatness just a bit of -EFFORT-. Try making some sometime.

If you can&#39;t be bothered to make fluff even if only in your own head - well, no one can make you but you are missing out and its a pity if you can&#39;t see it.

If you want to use special characters for the reasons in the first post then try it but don&#39;t be arrogant and petulant enough to think your opponent is just being narrow minded or blinkered if he doesn&#39;t want to play with you - he may be unwilling to accept what he sees rightly or wrongly as an imbalance as you say or he might just be sick to death of playing against &#39;Mr Creed&#39; for the fifth time in a day.

Tournaments being for rule mongers? Well thats a thicko statement if ever there was one. Yes there are rules in competitions - isn&#39;t that a shock&#33; Then again I suppose some people might spit their dummies if they were told they couldn&#39;t compete in a 100m sprint whilst riding a motorcycle. "aww come on its more fun this way, stop being beardy..".

Facts and figures being wrong or unsubstantiated? Well in 20 years of being in the hobby I have personally seen a lot of player and fellow hobbyists and the tiny minority of them that weren&#39;t totally immersed in the hobby were generally young teens who were just going through the &#39;Ive got to prove my place in the pack and win at all costs - I&#39;ve won 15 times and only lost once yay me&#33;&#39; phase. They don&#39;t last - they never do. That is because they are missing out on the point of the hobby and lets not mince words, whilst the hobby is the game lets just say that the game is less than 25% of the hobby.

Then again perhaps you alive in a different society that values winning and standing in your peer group over everything else including having fun in your pastimes in which case, that&#39;s a real pitiable shame for you.

This isn&#39;t elitism, its not a case of some people painting faster than others or better than others, its not about people being more creative or having more time to practice than others and it certainly isn&#39;t about GW wanting to rive as much money off you as they possibly can by pulling you into the whole hobby -"they" as people call them aren&#39;t trying to con or swindle you "they" are providing you with your pastime - which you must actually like at least a bit otherwise you wouldn&#39;t be posting here so give them some credit please.

Its about the fact that this is a multiplayer game and everything you do isn&#39;t just for your benefit it is for your peers aswell (&#39;I only like the strategy so to hell with the rest of you who aren&#39;t so shallow - this makes ME happy&#39 - its about consideration for your fellow player and about some people not even trying to add a little more effort just because they think they shouldn&#39;t have to.

One way or another you will either get opponents or not. But referring to the original post if someone turns you down (and they obviously have at some point otherwise what is the point of posting) consider that the failing might be with you and your opinions rather than theirs.