Have you considered that your comments about fairness are very one way and that not enjoying something is not being shallow?Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 27 2004, 07:39
Well, without going through the points raised by Greymeister, Grungydan et al. I'll summarize:
Some of your issues are interesting, some are whining but all are basically just excusing shortcomings on your own behalfs.
If you can't paint then practice until you can ( - with deference to 9 iron if you know the principles of painting then practice is the only way that you will eventually get a neat paint job at the least.) - if you don't have time to practice then just do the best job you can - don't dare to think that 'because you can't do it (well or at all)' that you don't need to bother because that is no excuse at all. People don't expect GD quality jobs or even neatness just a bit of -EFFORT-. Try making some sometime.
If you can't be bothered to make fluff even if only in your own head - well, no one can make you but you are missing out and its a pity if you can't see it.
If you want to use special characters for the reasons in the first post then try it but don't be arrogant and petulant enough to think your opponent is just being narrow minded or blinkered if he doesn't want to play with you - he may be unwilling to accept what he sees rightly or wrongly as an imbalance as you say or he might just be sick to death of playing against 'Mr Creed' for the fifth time in a day.
Tournaments being for rule mongers? Well thats a thicko statement if ever there was one. Yes there are rules in competitions - isn't that a shock! Then again I suppose some people might spit their dummies if they were told they couldn't compete in a 100m sprint whilst riding a motorcycle. "aww come on its more fun this way, stop being beardy..".
Facts and figures being wrong or unsubstantiated? Well in 20 years of being in the hobby I have personally seen a lot of player and fellow hobbyists and the tiny minority of them that weren't totally immersed in the hobby were generally young teens who were just going through the 'Ive got to prove my place in the pack and win at all costs - I've won 15 times and only lost once yay me!' phase. They don't last - they never do.┬* That is because they are missing out on the point of the hobby and lets not mince words, whilst the hobby is the game┬* lets just say that the game is less than 25% of the hobby.
Then again perhaps you alive in a different society that values winning and standing in your peer group over everything else including having fun in your pastimes in which case, that's a real pitiable shame for you.
This isn't elitism, its not a case of some people painting faster than others or better than others, its not about people being more creative or having more time to practice than others and it certainly isn't about GW wanting to rive as much money off you as they possibly can by pulling you into the whole hobby -"they" as people call them aren't trying to con or swindle you "they" are providing you with your pastime - which you must actually like at least a bit otherwise you wouldn't be posting here so give them some credit please.
Its about the fact that this is a multiplayer game and everything you do isn't just for your benefit it is for your peers aswell ('I only like the strategy so to hell with the rest of you who aren't so shallow - this makes ME happy' - its about consideration for your fellow player and about some people not even trying to add a little more effort just because they think they shouldn't have to.
One way or another you will either get opponents or not. But referring to the original post if someone turns you down (and they obviously have at some point otherwise what is the point of posting) consider that the failing might be with you and your opinions rather than theirs.
As I said I do enjoy the whole deal, much as you do yourself, but I don't find it insulting when someone who doesn't turns up.
Also as I said I put in as much effort as I can, as do most people, it doesn't mean I feel it is neccessary to play wiht only a fully painted army, I actually commented earlier I believe that as long as an opponents army is more painted (even by just one model or some details) than it was last week then good for him, not making any progress is when you can take issue. Asking anything more than that IS an elitist attitude, even if you don't realise it.
And as to when someone CAN'T do something (I mean physically can't not just is bad at it) then you say thats no excuse? I've rarely heard a more ridiculous statement. Using your 100m example "What do you mean you can't run 100 m because you have muscular dystrophy? Stop being so lazy!" Thats insane, not to mention biggoted.
And please stop being so small minded to think that someone who enjoys the game for the strategy as opposed to the rest of it is just out to win, I think you'll find that most are out to enjoy a challenging game and a battle of wits with their opponent. Win or lose they want a good game.
I think you should look to your own narrow minded arrogance before tagging other people with that kind of image. Be considerate of people who are different from you and accept that people may not enjoy what you do, broaden your horizons.
As far as tournaments are concerned I enjoy them, but they are totally different to casual playing the same rules don't and shouldn't apply, casual playing is where you develop skills and have a laugh with friends, Tournaments are a place where you compete to win. Its like the difference between a football league (be it premiership or conference) and a kick about down the park. Two different games.
Think about it. Although if I ever meet you for a game I will bring ONLY the painted army because it is also important to make sure all the players are happy and not to draconically impose your values on others and accept other people as they are.
I totally disagree with your comment that the game is less than 25% of the hobby, the game is a hobby within the GW hobby as are all the others and its just as valid as any other, you don't HAVE to like one to like the others, its not compulsory and its not realistic to expect everyone to.
Do you mind if people only paint and don't play? I suspect not, but is that not just the same thing? (I have friends who do this too)
Yes the majority of people in my experience as well enjoy the majority of the aspects of the hobby, but also the majoriy of people see the game as more than 50% of that hobby and the other hobbies as sattelite hobbies. So as you said lets not mince words. The relevance of any hobby within the whole hobby is a personal thing and therefore should be seen and accepted as such. Be tolerant.
As a comment on society I 'come from' several different societies I guess as where I grew up, where I have lived and where I live now are all very different and all have had shaping affects, they have largely led me to the conclusion that there is no 'right way' for almost everything, especially something as diverse and multifaceted as the GW hobby and therefore it is best to accept that others may not share my view of that hobby and that their views are equally valid. The only view I take exception to is the view that "My way is the right way". I have alluded to my personal preferences, but haven't actually stated them so just to clarify heres a list in preference order:
Social (I like people, its the best bit)
Playing (good, intense games, don't care if I win or not)
Fluff (I like creative writing and creating my own characters and thus rarely use special characters myself)
Conversion (I like making my fluffy creations)
Painting (Although its fun its very time consuming and I suck at it, I'm better than I used to be and can now do most basic techniques, but I still don't get great looking models, although they are *slowly* improving)
On the topic of the orginal post I think that if someone doesn't want to play against a special character maybe you should have a non special standing in reserve for the same points to sub on---- accomodate them if they are not willing to accomodate you, then maybe when they see your reasonable you can use your SC sometimes and not others so you both get what you want.
EDIT: Also meant to put great job 9 iron, then forgot now I remember and use the funky EDIT key.