The Special Character Enigma

[karantalsis]

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 27 2004, 07:39
Well, without going through the points raised by Greymeister, Grungydan et al. I'll summarize:

Some of your issues are interesting, some are whining but all are basically just excusing shortcomings on your own behalfs.

If you can't paint then practice until you can ( - with deference to 9 iron if you know the principles of painting then practice is the only way that you will eventually get a neat paint job at the least.) - if you don't have time to practice then just do the best job you can - don't dare to think that 'because you can't do it (well or at all)' that you don't need to bother because that is no excuse at all. People don't expect GD quality jobs or even neatness just a bit of -EFFORT-. Try making some sometime.

If you can't be bothered to make fluff even if only in your own head - well, no one can make you but you are missing out and its a pity if you can't see it.

If you want to use special characters for the reasons in the first post then try it but don't be arrogant and petulant enough to think your opponent is just being narrow minded or blinkered if he doesn't want to play with you - he may be unwilling to accept what he sees rightly or wrongly as an imbalance as you say or he might just be sick to death of playing against 'Mr Creed' for the fifth time in a day.

Tournaments being for rule mongers? Well thats a thicko statement if ever there was one. Yes there are rules in competitions - isn't that a shock! Then again I suppose some people might spit their dummies if they were told they couldn't compete in a 100m sprint whilst riding a motorcycle. "aww come on its more fun this way, stop being beardy..".

Facts and figures being wrong or unsubstantiated? Well in 20 years of being in the hobby I have personally seen a lot of player and fellow hobbyists and the tiny minority of them that weren't totally immersed in the hobby were generally young teens who were just going through the 'Ive got to prove my place in the pack and win at all costs - I've won 15 times and only lost once yay me!' phase. They don't last - they never do.Â* That is because they are missing out on the point of the hobby and lets not mince words, whilst the hobby is the gameÂ* lets just say that the game is less than 25% of the hobby.

Then again perhaps you alive in a different society that values winning and standing in your peer group over everything else including having fun in your pastimes in which case, that's a real pitiable shame for you.

This isn't elitism, its not a case of some people painting faster than others or better than others, its not about people being more creative or having more time to practice than others and it certainly isn't about GW wanting to rive as much money off you as they possibly can by pulling you into the whole hobby -"they" as people call them aren't trying to con or swindle you "they" are providing you with your pastime - which you must actually like at least a bit otherwise you wouldn't be posting here so give them some credit please.

Its about the fact that this is a multiplayer game and everything you do isn't just for your benefit it is for your peers aswell ('I only like the strategy so to hell with the rest of you who aren't so shallow - this makes ME happy&#39 - its about consideration for your fellow player and about some people not even trying to add a little more effort just because they think they shouldn't have to.

One way or another you will either get opponents or not. But referring to the original post if someone turns you down (and they obviously have at some point otherwise what is the point of posting) consider that the failing might be with you and your opinions rather than theirs.

[snapback]238975[/snapback]

Have you considered that your comments about fairness are very one way and that not enjoying something is not being shallow?

As I said I do enjoy the whole deal, much as you do yourself, but I don't find it insulting when someone who doesn't turns up.

Also as I said I put in as much effort as I can, as do most people, it doesn't mean I feel it is neccessary to play wiht only a fully painted army, I actually commented earlier I believe that as long as an opponents army is more painted (even by just one model or some details) than it was last week then good for him, not making any progress is when you can take issue. Asking anything more than that IS an elitist attitude, even if you don't realise it.

And as to when someone CAN'T do something (I mean physically can't not just is bad at it) then you say thats no excuse? I've rarely heard a more ridiculous statement. Using your 100m example "What do you mean you can't run 100 m because you have muscular dystrophy? Stop being so lazy!" Thats insane, not to mention biggoted.

And please stop being so small minded to think that someone who enjoys the game for the strategy as opposed to the rest of it is just out to win, I think you'll find that most are out to enjoy a challenging game and a battle of wits with their opponent. Win or lose they want a good game.

I think you should look to your own narrow minded arrogance before tagging other people with that kind of image. Be considerate of people who are different from you and accept that people may not enjoy what you do, broaden your horizons.

As far as tournaments are concerned I enjoy them, but they are totally different to casual playing the same rules don't and shouldn't apply, casual playing is where you develop skills and have a laugh with friends, Tournaments are a place where you compete to win. Its like the difference between a football league (be it premiership or conference) and a kick about down the park. Two different games.

Think about it. Although if I ever meet you for a game I will bring ONLY the painted army because it is also important to make sure all the players are happy and not to draconically impose your values on others and accept other people as they are.

I totally disagree with your comment that the game is less than 25% of the hobby, the game is a hobby within the GW hobby as are all the others and its just as valid as any other, you don't HAVE to like one to like the others, its not compulsory and its not realistic to expect everyone to.

Do you mind if people only paint and don't play? I suspect not, but is that not just the same thing? (I have friends who do this too)

Yes the majority of people in my experience as well enjoy the majority of the aspects of the hobby, but also the majoriy of people see the game as more than 50% of that hobby and the other hobbies as sattelite hobbies. So as you said lets not mince words. The relevance of any hobby within the whole hobby is a personal thing and therefore should be seen and accepted as such. Be tolerant.

As a comment on society I 'come from' several different societies I guess as where I grew up, where I have lived and where I live now are all very different and all have had shaping affects, they have largely led me to the conclusion that there is no 'right way' for almost everything, especially something as diverse and multifaceted as the GW hobby and therefore it is best to accept that others may not share my view of that hobby and that their views are equally valid. The only view I take exception to is the view that "My way is the right way". I have alluded to my personal preferences, but haven't actually stated them so just to clarify heres a list in preference order:

Social (I like people, its the best bit)
Playing (good, intense games, don't care if I win or not)
Fluff (I like creative writing and creating my own characters and thus rarely use special characters myself)
Conversion (I like making my fluffy creations)
Painting (Although its fun its very time consuming and I suck at it, I'm better than I used to be and can now do most basic techniques, but I still don't get great looking models, although they are *slowly* improving)

On the topic of the orginal post I think that if someone doesn't want to play against a special character maybe you should have a non special standing in reserve for the same points to sub on---- accomodate them if they are not willing to accomodate you, then maybe when they see your reasonable you can use your SC sometimes and not others so you both get what you want.

EDIT: Also meant to put great job 9 iron, then forgot now I remember and use the funky EDIT key.

[greymeister]

9 Iron that was a great post (Y) (Y)

I also agree largely with karantalsis. The game is 40k Jack Blood. I don't know why I feel like I need to clarify that but that's the plain truth. If you find yourself more interested in the hobby of model collecting and painting and only play on the side, that's your call. However, just like karantalsis said, don't go applying your ideals to others who may actually have the hobby to facilitate the game, not vice-versa.

[Grungydan]

I was going to let this rest at karantalsis' response, as he covered most of what I was thinking as I read Jack's post, but I changed my mind. I have a couple of things to add:

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 27 2004, 03:39
Some of your issues are interesting, some are whining but all are basically just excusing shortcomings on your own behalfs.

Where was the whining? I saw only an exchange of opinions, and a discussion of ideas. But that's just me. I suppose perhaps, with your obviously superior viewpoint, that perhaps there was whining.

If you can't paint then practice until you can ( - with deference to 9 iron if you know the principles of painting then practice is the only way that you will eventually get a neat paint job at the least.) - if you don't have time to practice then just do the best job you can - don't dare to think that 'because you can't do it (well or at all)' that you don't need to bother because that is no excuse at all. People don't expect GD quality jobs or even neatness just a bit of -EFFORT-. Try making some sometime.

What about those that just DON'T CARE? Oh no! You mean they exist? What you're doing here is making a a statement based on false logic. The false logic in question being the basis that everyone has to have a painted army, everyone cares about an army being painted, and that your army doesn't work correctly if it's not painted. None of which are imperial truths by any means. You seem to be missing our point. I'll reiterated it later.

If you can't be bothered to make fluff even if only in your own head - well, no one can make you but you are missing out and its a pity if you can't see it.

Do I even need to address this seperately? I don't think so. See my above comments.

If you want to use special characters for the reasons in the first post then try it but don't be arrogant and petulant enough to think your opponent is just being narrow minded or blinkered if he doesn't want to play with you - he may be unwilling to accept what he sees rightly or wrongly as an imbalance as you say or he might just be sick to death of playing against 'Mr Creed' for the fifth time in a day.

You make a decent point here, with "perhaps he's just tired of playing against 'Mr Creed' for the fifth time today." This could be true. However, it's hard to point fingers while you're committing the act that you're pointing out. I.e. Your entire post is dripping with arrogance. And quite frankly, I also find it petulant. But I suppose that's okay, it having come from a superior viewpoint and all.

Tournaments being for rule mongers? Well thats a thicko statement if ever there was one. Yes there are rules in competitions - isn't that a shock! Then again I suppose some people might spit their dummies if they were told they couldn't compete in a 100m sprint whilst riding a motorcycle. "aww come on its more fun this way, stop being beardy..".

Actually, you're drawing a comparison that borders on hyperbole. Also, it's a bit counter-logical in the overall context of this thread. Yes, there are rules in competition. Yes, most players in said tournaments are rules mongers. (At least in the GW sanctioned ones, as they won't allow it to be any other way.) So why defend against a statement by validating it? Doesn't make any sense. Actually, the only thing out of that paragraph that's clear is calling anyone that disagrees with you a "thicko" (which isn't hard to figure out, even for us Americans ). I didn't see anyone referring to you as a mule, or a brick. (read: stubborn and unyielding, implying that you only see things one way and refuse to consider any others)

... That is because they are missing out on the point of the hobby and lets not mince words, whilst the hobby is the game lets just say that the game is less than 25% of the hobby.

Again, simply your own opinion. Most statistics (the ones I toss out from time to time) are simply guesses and quasi-facts made by people to support their viewpoint. Nothing exists to substantiate your claim that the game is only 25% of the hobby. In fact, if you asked someone that only, say, modelled and gamed, then gaming would be half the hobby. And that's not counting time spent into the equation. Maybe they only spend five hours modelling their army, and twenty hours playing. See my point?

Then again perhaps you alive in a different society that values winning and standing in your peer group over everything else including having fun in your pastimes in which case, that's a real pitiable shame for you.

Actually, the attitude of having to win to have fun, and wanting to stand over your peer group is quite commonly a trait of rules mongering persons that also spend a great deal of time telling people on internet forums that they have to do every single part of a 'hobby' in order for them to be conforming to the standards of said hobby.

This isn't elitism, its not a case of some people painting faster than others or better than others, its not about people being more creative or having more time to practice than others and it certainly isn't about GW wanting to rive as much money off you as they possibly can by pulling you into the whole hobby -"they" as people call them aren't trying to con or swindle you "they" are providing you with your pastime - which you must actually like at least a bit otherwise you wouldn't be posting here so give them some credit please.

Credit given. They make a neat game, and cool models. Oh, and btw, it is elitism, a case (in some cases) of painting fast or slow, being creative, having time to practice, and you're deluded if you think they do anything with a goal other than making more money. They are a business. Why do you think people are constantly hearing things like "the pay at GW is crap" and "GW is all about the bottom line" etc. And not from uninformed people, but from former employees, and the like. One does not have to agree with everything a company does in order to enjoy a product produced by said company.

Its about the fact that this is a multiplayer game and everything you do isn't just for your benefit it is for your peers aswell ('I only like the strategy so to hell with the rest of you who aren't so shallow - this makes ME happy&#39 - its about consideration for your fellow player and about some people not even trying to add a little more effort just because they think they shouldn't have to.

Actually, they don't have too. Sure, you can refuse to play someone for not putting the 'effort' into painting and fluffing their army. Then, while you're in the corner complaining to yourself about people being thick and lazy, the rest of us will set up a story based campaign, play a night of games, have a great time, and go home feeling like the night wasn't a waste of time after all.

As a parting note, everything you just posted, was your OPINION. Some folks aren't aware of that. Just thought I'd be a pal and help you out.

[greymeister]

I wish I had grungydan's patience.

[karantalsis]

Nice post Grungydan, I think you captured all the bits I missed out. If you add 9 Irons post, your post and my post together I think they actually convey my own opinion better than my post alone. And all our posts are of course our opinions, so could be wrong. Though I think they are fairly accurate depiction of the modal opinion of gamers... OK nothing else to add really, just wanted to comment on a nice post by you then thought while I'm here I might as well type some more stuff.

Happy days all around I hope (including Jack Blood).

[Grungydan]

Hehe. If you only knew me in person, you might feel different about my "patience." I try, I really do, but I just get ahead of myself when I'm talking to people sometimes. It's one of the things about me that I'm working on. :blush:

[Jack Blood]

Well alright then.

I just wrote a long and rambling and not entirely pleasant post and decide to hit the delete key instead of posting it - there is no point being inflammatory, I don't want to be unpleasant and that sort of thing achieves nothing and goes nowhere.

Sorry if you think I was arrogant. Believe it or not I'm wasn't intending to. Your posts really did sound to be a long list of excuses why you are playing nicely when in actual fact you weren't it really annoyed me.

That was my opinion but maybe my opinion of nice doesn't correlate with yours and I'll accept that I am wrong in not taking that on board.

Basically I honestly do seem to come from a demographic where, as I was trying to illustrate, 'being considerate' to a fellow gamers and your game's spectators involves more than giving everyone a turn then passing around the crisps and beer and cracking bad jokes. Where its frowned on to use bare lead and where a ketchup bottle can in no way shape or form represent a dreadnought.

I was trying to say that the reasons for people not wanting to play against special characters was not as simple as over-powering fears and balancing issues but can often just be more complex with varied reasons for another's distaste for the whole idea of them. Simple as that really you can't dismiss people as wrong just because you think you understand why they are doing or saying something.

The painting issue is a side dish and an illustration that got out of hand - by the fact that I mentioned it so glibly to begin with believe this much, I honestly assumed that the distaste for unpainted armies was as universal as I consider it and had experienced it to be - Its bad for both players and probably even worse for the spectators so its always been a shade beyond - obviously not everywhere though.

Luckily for me, one thing is for sure I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I'm unique in my opinion and I'm not a loner in thinking the way I still do about all the issues I have raised.

Infact I still maintain from what I have seen and experienced that mine is the more mainstream view, I won't change on that opinion as the balance of proof is against it.

So next time an opponent picks faults with your lists or armies or characters or even just gets a bit cool with you, stop and consider that it might not be him that has a problem and you can't dismiss it as being 'beardy' or arrogant because his opinion of 'nice' might not be the same as yours.

[cadre_of_storms]

Its not that cut and dried though most people build their army up in sections anyway and so painting becomes irrelevant - if you have painted 500 points then play 500 pt battles - if you have painted 1000 pts then play that much - you don't have to buy 2500pts of lead and then whinge about how you don't have time to paint them.

jack blood said that and i agree i ahte playing people with unpainted models (try a 3000 point game where i had a fully painted army and my opponent had one model undercoated in blacka dn that was it) i think it takes something from the game but sometimes people with slap happy paint jobs are worse i dont mean new people who havent learnt to paint brilliant yet i mean those who whack on paint and then say they painted.

Special chracters are a good idea but the problem is power gamers take them to blast opponents to pieces and often never ask if they can take just plonk them on the table and then say that they havent made a diffrent army list. i love beating power gamers its so funny when they lose and nearly start crying and have a sulk.

[greymeister]

When someone dismisses your army for legally using something he doesn't want you to, he/she has a problem with your list. Using something that isn't legal for your list is not their problem but your problem.

I haven't ever encountered anyone who I'm about to play complain about my list, mostly from spectators who think since they own 5 armies they are automatically king of the hill or something. That's the person who I was referring to by saying to counteract me playing any IG special characters he wanted to play against me with his monolith and Nightbringer, which I thought was funny because it was like he was going to punish me for bringing it. I never would have refused to play against him, but that's because any legal list I think my armies should, for the most part, be a worthy adversary. I mean, for the Nightbringer he was saying he was going to hide it behind his monolith and get it in range. I simply said fine, I'll just have 3 squads of veterans with lascannons firing at your monolith as well as a drop troop of meltaguns in an HQ melting it, and then use Ratlings to take out your nightbringer. So in this case, I had non-special alternatives to dealing with a special character. I mean, I wouldn't be stupid enough to run Yarrick into CC with the Nightbringer.

I think in general no special characters should be able to totally wipe out someone with a balanced list. If so, I'd argue the list wasn't balanced in the first place. That's why I only use special characters when they are part of a plan and fit into the background of my unit, since most of my opponents are good enough to counteract any special rules they have. That and most of them will be fluffy in their strategy as well, trying to waste the SC the first chance they get ^_^

[karantalsis]

Originally posted by Jack Blood+Oct 28 2004, 084--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Blood &#064; Oct 28 2004, 084)</div><div class='quotemain'>Well alright then.

I just wrote a long and rambling and not entirely pleasant post and decide to hit the delete key instead of posting it - there is no point being inflammatory, I don&#39;t want to be unpleasant and that sort of thing achieves nothing and goes nowhere.

[snapback]239771[/snapback]

[/b]

Well we agree on that, glad we do. As I said happines is willed all around.

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 28 2004, 084
Sorry if you think I was arrogant. Believe it or not I&#39;m wasn&#39;t intending to. Your posts really did sound to be a long list of excuses why you are playing nicely when in actual fact you weren&#39;t it really annoyed me.

[snapback]239771[/snapback]

Fair enough apology accepted and returned, it really annoyed me when isaw your first post for reasons already explained, so sorry if that appeared to be arrogant or whining to you.

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 28 2004, 084
That was my opinion but maybe my opinion of nice doesn&#39;t correlate with yours and I&#39;ll accept that I am wrong in not taking that on board.

[snapback]239771[/snapback]

Thats all I asked.

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 28 2004, 084
Basically I honestly do seem to come from a demographic where, as I was trying to illustrate, &#39;being considerate&#39; to a fellow gamers and your game&#39;s spectators involves more than giving everyone a turn then passing around the crisps and beer and cracking bad jokes. Where its frowned on to use bare lead and where a ketchup bottle can in no way shape or form represent a dreadnought.

[snapback]239771[/snapback]

Ketchup bottle I wouldn&#39;t accept eitehr, thats just silly. You come from a different demographic and I have noted that these things are very regional, its differnt in the north, south and midlands (of the UK), I have lived in each so I can say that with certainty, although on the whole the view I was opining was the consensus (for outside tourney play) I am willing to accept thats its different in your region.

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 28 2004, 084
I was trying to say that the reasons for people not wanting to play against special characters was not as simple as over-powering fears and balancing issues but can often just be more complex with varied reasons for another&#39;s distaste for the whole idea of them. Simple as that really you can&#39;t dismiss people as wrong just because you think you understand why they are doing or saying something.

[snapback]239771[/snapback]

Yeah I think that was somewhere in my pioints too, don&#39;t dismiss other peoples ideas as wrong completely agree with that bit. Varied reasons for not wanting to play against SC&#39;s, check. Painting issue I personally believe is pedantic, as is fluff issue, playing against the same SC can get annoying and for that reason fair enough, just ask them politely if they mind altering their HQ or whatever as you have played that same SC too much today and its getting tedious, if their reasonable they&#39;ll probably agree, I would.

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 28 2004, 084
The painting issue is a side dish and an illustration that got out of hand - by the fact that I mentioned it so glibly to begin with believe this much, I honestly assumed that the distaste for unpainted armies was as universal as I consider it and had experienced it to be - Its bad for both players and probably even worse for the spectators so its always been a shade beyond - obviously not everywhere though.

[snapback]239771[/snapback]

Your entitled to your opinion, I understand where your coming from and I, personally think that you need to show a little more consideration here, if the army is not painted, but is more painted each time you play against it then I think thats a middle ground, your playing and hes painting as requested.

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 28 2004, 084
Luckily for me, one thing is for sure I&#39;m not arrogant enough to believe that I&#39;m unique in my opinion and I&#39;m not a loner in thinking the way I still do about all the issues I have raised.

[snapback]239771[/snapback]

No doubt your not unique, I&#39;ve met and talked to toehrs with the same opinion as you, they are just a minority in my experience.

Originally posted by Jack Blood@Oct 28 2004, 084
Infact I still maintain from what I have seen and experienced that mine is the more mainstream view, I won&#39;t change on that opinion as the balance of proof is against it.

[snapback]239771[/snapback]

I know nothing of your region so there, obviously your the expert. No argument. But only for your region.

<!--QuoteBegin-Jack Blood@Oct 28 2004, 084
So next time an opponent picks faults with your lists or armies or characters or even just gets a bit cool with you, stop and consider that it might not be him that has a problem and you can&#39;t dismiss it as being &#39;beardy&#39; or arrogant because his opinion of &#39;nice&#39; might not be the same as yours.

[snapback]239771[/snapback]

[/quote]

Equally next time you are about to pick faults or get a bit cool or refuse to play stop a moment and consider if your being fair to your opponent. Consider what he enjoys, as he is almost certyainly going to be slowly painting miniatures or be willing to not use a special character in some games if you ask it nicely, as long as you accept that maybe he hasn&#39;t got a fully painted army yet and that he can use SC&#39;s sometimes. Its all about compromise in my opinion, compromise and tolerance.

On a side note you didn&#39;t answer the question I asked earlier about whether you consider womeone who paints alot and doesn&#39;t play often (and therefore hasn&#39;t learnt tactics and such well) in the same way as you consider someone who paints little and plays lots.