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Recently I initiated a tirade against cheese, cheesey armies, and cheesey players in two separate topics in the Space Marine forum. After engaging in a duel of arguments with Chaosbrynn, he very intelligently showed me the light and helped me to understand why so many players love to cry cheese.
For any newbies or those not in the know, cheese is either a real or fictitious problem in tabletop gaming where one player accuses another of souping up or maxing out his list with most numbers of the best troops he or she is allowed all so that it makes victory easier for that person. There are two sides to the argument, and this issue has divided many wargame players for years. There are some who believe cheese does not even exist, that those who complain about the composition of another player's list are just sore losers. The anti-cheese players, on the other hand, claim that cheese is a very real problem and hate it with a passion, often claiming to take more balanced army lists when they game, though "pro-cheese" players will call those same balanced lists weak, citing that "if its legal, I can take it" and assuming that most players should do the same to keep the game competitive.
Now, I used to think I had the answers to this whole issue. I was very anti-cheese, as my posts in the two SM topics will attest to. But through my discussions with Chaosbrynn and other posters, I learned to see things differently, and posted something in the Eldar forum that I think summarizes my current outlook on it all. I wanted to post it again here in the general forum just to share it with more people (not to be presumptuous or pompous) because what I learned from Chaosbrynn changed my whole outlook on things, and I figured that sharing what I learned might get some people talking or seeing things differently too. Or not. There are no easy answers, and if anything, the conclusions I came to just complicate things more on the issue of cheese. Anyway, here's the post:
"Does cheese even exist, or not? Hundreds if not thousands of gamers have discussed this very topic and argued about it ad infinitum. It will never go away. If you play Warhammer 40,000 or any of GW's games, you will inevitably come up against an opponent who uses "cheese" to win.
BTW, I'm not against cheese per se...but I do find army lists that max out on the best units and have legions of identical minis EXTREMELY BORING - both to play against and look at. I just roll my eyes at people that put all that time into building and painting a boring army. The joke's on them, IMO.
Now, what I would do when coming up against one of these "cheesey" opponents is bring two army lists. This is of course assuming I don't know how this player plays - if I know what to expect, I can settle on a list before I get to the store. For this tactic to work, you would need about 2500-3000 points of Eldar for a 1500-2000 point game, just so you can add and subtract units. I'm not up for playing boring armies myself, but short of deciding to not play the guy, this is pretty well your ownly option.
Have a balanced 1500-point list made up from your 3000 or so points. This is your default list. Its the list you play with most of the time, when you go up against other balanced lists fielded by "un-boring" players. But when you come up against a player that some would call "cheesey", break out your other list - the one with maxed out starcannons, 3 wraithlords or 3 falcons, or something similarly boring. I don't agree with "lowering oneself" and playing the game of a player you're none too impressed with, but that's not what you're doing.
It has recently come to my attention that there are two kinds of cheesey players. One is the honourable player, and he is often referred to as a powergamer. The other is the dishonourable cheesey player, and he is called a twink (or so I have been told by Chaosbrynn).
Powergamers look to give themselves the maximum advantage, but don't do so out of spite. They sometimes field cheesey armies just once to feel out some new tactics. They like to experiment, and every game is a learning opportunity for them. Their style of play is rather unforgiving, but with these people, you simply have to play at them back and give no quarter. Admittedly, a fun game of 40k becomes a little more competitive here. Remember though that powergamers are not cheesey players in the normal sense of that term --- they can play you with a balanced list, defeating you on equal terms with sheer force of tactics alone, but in this case they are choosing not to. In fact, they are probably playing a cheesey list just to test the limits so that they can learn and strengthen their tactics so they can dominate in balanced games as well.
Twinks, on the other hand, field cheesey or unbalanced lists all the time. They know nothing else. But that's not just what makes them twinks --- they are dishonourable because they field unbalanced lists for the wrong reasons. They are generally arse-holes too. They are mean-spirited or just plain *****s. When they win, they are sore winners. When they lose, they are EXTREMELY sore losers. They are never happy unless they are winning, and if they are winning, they rub your nose in it in a very insulting manner. I think when people refer to cheesey players, they are mostly talking about these people. We all know a few --- they are usually dumb people, often younger players who just like to feel superior, because they so rarely do. These people, well, you have to run them into the ground just like you would a powergamer, but you have to do so for different reasons. Remember, if you play this kind of cheese-master with a cheesey list and beat him, he will rather hypocritically call your army cheesey, showing his sore-loser colours. Good...let him know exactly what you did. Don't preach, cause you likely won't turn this little delinquent around with a simple tongue-lashing, but tell him you played a cheesey list because he did so. Even show him your other, balanced list and tell him you would have rather played a game with it if he would only smarten up and balance his army in the first place. Then walk away and let him be mad. Of course, if you lose this game, you will just have to take your lumps, because you agreed to take an unbalanced list to fight another unbalanced list, thereby saying that its ok to do so in your books. If you lose and cry cheese, that makes you a bigger loser than the guy sitting across from you.
Just remember that the big difference between a powergamer and a twink is the level of respect each has for his or her opponent. That, and powergamers can play balanced lists. They are versatile players, but might seem like twinks. They're not - twinks can only play with unbalanced lists. These are the players from which our negative term "cheese" comes from in the first place. Now go out there and whoop 'em."
I know that there have been other topics started regarding cheese/beardiness/cheapness/whatever-you-want-to-call-it in general, and if the mods want to lock this because of that, well that's their choice.
But I just wanted to get these ideas to a wider audience because they really impacted me. Oh, and lets not have this dissolve into a flame war or argument...if you have an opinion on the subject, please share, but do so constructively and with an understanding that others may disagree.
in my opinion there is no such thing as cheese
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>can't you handle a triple</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shas'O'M'Yen @ Feb 27 2005, 04:04)</div><div class='quotemain'>Well said</div>
wow, nice work. :blink:
I've played a few people who like to max their armies just so they can win all the time.
After a while his army becomes predictable and you can beat him with un "un-cheesey" army list.
Hope Is The First Step On The Road To Dissapointment.
I thnk its a good topic
But what is classified as cheese. is it 20 lascannons or three baslisks.
think about it, it may seem like cheese but if you have 20 lascannons and no tanks what so ever it kind of balances out a bit and if you have lots of tanks but few heavy weapons why is that cheese. and what happens if the army you chose is quite cheesy but is clearly the best choice you have for the certain mission you are playing.
i dont wanna be a cheese player and dont know if i am one so could someone give me an example of a cheese army list
Good points you have there.
According to your arguements I am calssified as a power gamer. I Constantly use devilish tactics and always play a hard game to win. However I don't use a "cheese" list. I do use units that I think will enhance my army and stick to the fluff of the army. Occassionally I use shining spears, they are so fun to use :o .
Just because I use a thought out list and play a tough game am I a powergamer?
I play with a powerful list. I don't take that many troop choices, but I recognize that there is a fragility to my force. I just make the list I have work to the best. Today, I playde a tyranid army. It was the first time I had fielded nearly my entire force, and also the first time I had played tyrannids. I used everything the best I could use them, and ended up winning.
I recognize that I do not like to lose, but I am still willing to take risks. I f I enjoyed losing, I would take total crap. Plus, the unbalances in aspects of my army complemet each other, and go with my prepared fluff.
In short, I am a powergamer.
Where's your Baritone Saxophone?
I used to be a power gamer useing every cheap tactic and careing more for effectiveness of weopons/unites then fluffyness (yes fluffynes is a word.....in my book....... :glare: ). I met my goal of winning almost all of my games. But then i realized that this is a hobby and it's not all about winning. I starting chooseing models b/c they looked cool over how effective they were. I also started useing themes and fluff in my army. (which had now switched from black templar to ork) and i found it was more fun to have a themed/fluffy army that doesn't win most of the time then to use a "powergamer" list. I also found out that more people like to play a laid back player who is looking for a fun match over a win. These are just my experences.
What is dis signature nonsence?! dem stupid human zoggers are always trien to confuze us.
to me two power gamers against others is the best type of game its competitive and it remains fun for example look at magic the gathering were many create decks that are purely competitive and thats fun
hovever against a fun list it is only fun to bring a similar one
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Impact'><u>"Veni Vedi Vici" </u></span></span>
Bob: If you had a dollar for every 60 cents...
you'd be Canada.
Bill: actually i think its more like 70 cents.
Bob: <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'> Tar-nation! You stole my thunder!</span>
hehe i also did the same thing for magic the gathering as well. I used to play a red/white deck just for effectiveness and winning compietitions or tournaments (i placed 3rd out of 24 players before (Y) not bad in my book, the only thing i got was a couple of free boster packs........... :glare: ) But now i my favorite deck is an all black with a cool theme and cards that in are it b/c they look cool.
What is dis signature nonsence?! dem stupid human zoggers are always trien to confuze us.
I believe there is such a thing as cheese because Warhammer rules are obviously not perfect therefore people will be able to somewhat easily bend and manipulate rules and armies.
But I don't really think any warhammer army is boring, it may be cheap, but I don't really see how cheap armies can be classified as boring, mabye to play, but not in any backround, painting, or fluff.
Here I am, Rock you like a Hurricane.
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