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I want to start a new army, I can only choose one and I cant choose which one. Will you people help me?
Ok the Choices I have come down to are: Space Marines and Imperial Guard
1. Dont need many models compaired to guard.
2. I like the Force Commander and Librarian.
3. I like have more that just one choice of weapons for squad.
4. Good Varity of units with some (not all) nice models.
1. Some units I dont like are pritty much required for a strong army (Terminators & Bikes).
2. Vehicals are expensive and I'm not made of money.
1. I really like all but a few of the models visualy.
2. I like the ability to have lots of heavy/special weapons.
3. I like to differnt force organization.
1. Thats alot to paint and base.
2. The differnt force orgaization is being a pain to understand without a codex, that I will not buy untill I get the army, so I dont know if what kinda force I want is possable or will work at all.
3. This is more similar to the last point. If each Platoon command sqaud needs guardsmen then where do I get them? I cant buy 'loose' guys so it means having to buy more boxs, and having more guys than I can use. I dont know if this is right but seeing others guard armies it seem so becuase I dont have the codex (I bought the Tau codex before relizing I didnt like them, I will not make that mistake again).
4. Those things you choose that make your army more differnt than other, I dont know how that works vs. the kinda army I want being possable.
5. Vehicals are expensive and I'm not made of money.
So basicly I like the SM but dont wanna spend money one units I dont like such as Terminators, Chaplins and Bikes just to have a compition usable army. I also dont wanna use the same tactics as my current necron army (more on that later).
I like IG but the only thing stopping me is not fully understanding the differnt FO and where to get the extra people for all the command squads without dropping $244 on a minimum sized army (I may be wrong about that but I just dont know), I dont have the extra money to buy the codex then choose I dont like them, again. This is one of the only reason I even thought of SM instead.
More Complex Pros/Cons:
As you may have heard me ranting all of the publicly usable battle tables are crap. They are small 4'x4' and are coved by 50% scenery and make all but the most basic forward movment impossable. In mega battles this is even worse, in one game I never even got into the game becuase a mob of Orks got in close combat in a bottle neck that I cold not advance through, and with a 4 turn time limit you can understand my frustraton, they were still bloking as the game ended, the 12 year old brat refused to set up anywere else.
I rarely have private games vs. anyone. This is because most players other than my and my sisters freinds will come to my house to play or visa versa. I dont want to buy I new army just to battle 2-3 differnt people on my home battle feilds I need to beable to play in public, so that means stratigly is nothing but advance and shoot and/or melee combat, it also limits the number of troops I can deploy and be able to use. This also makes CC units so over powered (to much cover and very short distance to move) that most people refuse to play them on these feilds, the reason I disided not to start Ork.
What I was saying earlier about if I play SM they will be just like my Necrons is that I will get Land Speeders (very similar to Destroyers) to advance fast and shoot and follow them with my other units. Its not like I even have room to deploy some SM units. LR and LRC are way to big to deploy unless its a mega battle (2 tables) and then its not able to move more than a few inches on some days.
This is also a problem with IG. They have so many units that alot will end up not able to move. Not bad if they are my heavy weapon sqauds but then I either need to place them in a place with cover and wait for an enemy to move in (and they dont need to) or place them in open and they die.
SM = Clone of my Necrons
IG = No room to move and little LOS for all my Guardsmen.
Its not always as bad as I am saying but its not always good either.
This worst fact of the matter is though:
You know how I said CC units are overpower on these battle feilds? Well the GW guy who work here play CC armies. Ork, Bloodangel (that rage thing makes them rush into it) and 'Nids! They set them up so they would have an advantage and ruining it for anyone else!
Overall: I think I want IG more than SM but I dont know for sure until I know how that Force organization thing work and if I will need to buy a bunch of extra stuff just to have a feild legal force. If my $244 CND assumtion is correct I'm getting SM but if not I want IG. Can you people please help me?
PS: Please dont turn this into a SM says IG sucks and IG says SM sucks thread.
Maybe you are looking at this in the wrong perspective. Judging from your descriptions you are very much concerned about how they play in close combat and how they are similar strategy wise to your other army.
First off I will say I am by no means an expert at playing. As a matter of fact I end up painting a whole lot more than I get a chance to play. That said maybe a non strategy suggestion will breath fresh life into your outlook.
It seems apparent that money is a concern for you. It is definitely true that you need less Space Marines than Iperial Guards. I also noticed your pro's and con's leaned more towards the Space Marines. This angle really suggests that Space Marines are the way to go.
You say you don't like the terminators, nor want to buy a lot of vehicles. You don't necessarily need Terminators to win. Sure they can be tough and deal out damage but they are not necessarily the make or break of the army. Also with Space Marines you won't need to use as many vehicles. It is my understanding that Iperial Guard tends to field a lot more vehicles overall.
Lastly maybe you could look at the aspect of modeling the army. If you enjoy this aspect another thing to consider is how you will be putting them all together. A lot of the new space marine plastics are very cool. The commander kit is cheap and comes with a ton of interesting bits that can be easily added to other maries for a more unique and customized look.
Ultimately this will of course have to be your decision and you should definitely feel comfortable about it before doing it. Also I would recommend starting small and building up. I don't know how many people I know that have gone out and bought up an entire army at 1 go and now they are all still sitting around - either still on the sprue, or all unpainted! If you start with the bare bones you can play a few games and build upon the strenths/weaknesses you see on the army. You may not win the first few games or as often as you like but it will give you the opportunity to grow your Army in the right direction. This will also probably save you money - rather than buying what you think you will need and not use very often.
Hope this is food for thought!
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Well, I would certainly suggest Imperial Guard. I am far from unbiased on the matter (I belong to the anti-SM fanclub), but I feel IG will give you a richer gaming experience. If money is an issue, as always, start small. Buy 500 points worth of troops, then play small battles with them, then work up to 1000 points and beyond.
The main gripe against Space Marines is that everyone plays them. If you choose an army that is much less frequently fielded, more players will want to play against you and you'll add a greater diversity and dynamic to the available armies in your area. Besides, many players who choose SM because its so newbie friendly quickly find that they have no one to fight against except other SM players. That can get very boring very fast.
IG are also more diverse than you might think. You have 3 main ways to field the army. One is the traditional "Stand and Shoot" (also known as "The Tau approach") whereby you pepper the enemy with as many heavy weapons and as much Lasgun fire as possible. You can also, once you buy some vehicles, make a partially or even fully mechanized force, where you have a solid battleline combined with some mobile troops mounted in transports. And finally, there is the Armoured Company, which would probably be a far off concept, but if you choose IG, it would be possible for you to make an armoured company in the future. Armoured companies are made up entirely of Tanks. IG is the only army that can presently do that (the rules were in White Dwarf, Chapter Approved, and probably online here somewhere). There are just a lot of options for you, and Forgeworld is releasing a lot of IG models right now, giving IG even more diversity in model selection.
IG will give you a more realistic "military" feel to the game, and they will certainly be much different from your Necrons. Marines are more like superheroes...a small group of 30-40 soldiers running around trying to take out the enemy through sheer skill. IG is more like modern military forces, and will give you a greater tactical feel to the battles. So in other words, if you want to go with the superhero/special ops feel, go SM. If you want to go more basic military with large platoons and tons of troops with ungodly firepower, go IG.
EDIT: After reading your more complex pros and cons, I see that SM would probably be better for you, actually. Its a shame that you have to make your decision based on the size of the publically available battlefields. That isn't even the way they are supposed to be...you're GW store should know better. Average table size is 6 X 4, and it should only be covered in 25% - 33% scenery/cover. I would still recommend IG because it will give you a rarer force and a different way to play then standard SM, but if you have no other options but to play on those tables, you definitely need an army that is CC-capable, and IG aren't really.
Last edited by Houston; May 17th, 2005 at 17:23.
I went through pretty much the same dilema as you when I first decided to start playing. I wanted an army that would be able to counter the CC abilities of 'nids and Khorne worshiping chaos. So my first choice was to go SM, but then I realised the best way to win would be to out shoot them. By holding back and blasting my enemies I figure I would have a better chance at winning in CC once it came to that(Although I still have a bit more painting to do before I can test this theory).
What exactly confuses you about the Force Organization of the IG? It's fairly simple:
command platoon(which has your command squad and a few choices for support squads, such as anti tank/infantry or sentinel squadrons)
A platoon is a single troop choice and consists of a platoon command squad, then 1 or more squads.
the rest of the list for IG is the same as any other army.
Oh wow, you have exactly the same armies you want to chose from as I do. I am still undecided whether to go IG or SM for a second army myself. Right now I'm leaning towards SM, because they look cool, and they are cool, fluffwise. I'm not too interested how either play on the battlefield, I'm chosing between IG and SM because they're cool fluffwise. If I do end up chosing IG, it's because I really like the idea that IG has millions of men to spare, and they throw random platoons together and fight random enemies, and it's all for the emperor. If I instead end up chosing SM, it's because I like the superhuman traits and the fact that these space marines are made for fighting and that's what they do, day in and day out.
termies and bikes are definitely not required for a good strong army. especially not bikes. termies are only good if you know how to use them and have a viable way to get them on and around the field without having a big fat sign on their back saying SHOOT ME!!! so its best to learn from others how to use them properly before considering purchasing them.
if you have any assault sqauds and are planning to get the most out of them it is strongly suggested that you have a chaplain with a jump pack attached to them. what dont you like about chaplains?
oh and about the money thing if its the main factor think about how much you will spend on getting a full force of IG with paint, primer and all that extra stuff as compared to an SM army. i think it will be only a tad smaller in favor of the SMs.
Last edited by gamesondemand; May 17th, 2005 at 22:08.
Like people have said before, you really dont need termies or bikes for a strong army. Yes tanks are expensive but think about how expensive an IG army will be altogether.