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Lately I've been thinking about why I'm into 40k and warhammer. Should I quit or not? So I asked myself: What do I like so much about warhammer? I came up with several answers:
-Painting and converting interesting models with personality
-making up my own fluff
-basing battles on fluff
The next natural question was: What do I not like about warhammer?
-All the kids and geeks
-Painting and assembling a hundred of the same model
-All the time a game takes. One battle usually takes an entire evening for me.
-All the trouble that goes into transporting models and terrain and the rulebook.(I don't have a car )
After thinking about these things my conclusion was that I should play those game systems with fewer models and narrative gaming. Because:
-If you have a narrative for your games, you have a lot more inspiration for making cool terrain.
-Fewer models means better and more fun and varied conversions
-narrative gaming means practically no cheesyness.
-Fewer models are a lot easier to transport.
-Those games are MADE for interesting Narrative play.
-Fewer models means bye bye to painting rank and file! YES!
-fewer models means shorter games.
-Every Mordheim battle I've had has been just as fun as the warhammer games I've had, and you can play three mordheim games in the time of one warhammer battle.
Do you agree with me? :huh:
Ave Dominus Nox!
Kids and geeks are essential to keep the hobby alive. I don't have much trouble with either at my club. Kids can be told to shut up and geeks are usually great people to deal with. I could go on and on about this, but since we're talking about a stereotype that just wouldn't help. There are thousands of kids and geeks, being in this hobby is like playing football even if you don't like sportjunkies! If you don't like them then play with someone else. It's simple really.Originally Posted by Absoluthor
Painting and assembling a hundred of the same model? I don't mind that. You're building and army! Would it be more fun to assemble and paint a hundred different models you think? I play guard, having tons of guys wearing the same colours and holding their lasguns. Having them all lined up in my shelf between battles... watching them stand there gives me a good feeling - I've put alot of work into my army, work that I am proud of even though my painting skills ain't that good. If you're tired to making the same kind of model time and time again then try something different, nobody is forcing you to build a huge army. If you're tired of painting... say marines, then try guard or eldar, a small combat patrol force or something.
All the time the game takes? I think that's one of the better things about games like this, I enjoy every minute of playing, win or lose, if you don't have the time to play larger battles then play smaller ones. Or as you say, games like Mordheim or Necromunda. You've got to prioritize your spare time, but I personally would rather be playing 40k than wasting time infront of the TV or playing computer games, because I get to meet people.
Trouble transporting your army. I can see what you mean, put my stuff in boxes and then the boxes in a bag that i later fill with towels to they won't bump around as I'm carrying it. The boxes are already filled with foam, toilet paper and more foam. It can be a hassle moving large armies around, but again, I don't mind. I've got the time. I guess playing Mordheim could ease thing up, but I like the charm of two big armies clashing, It's worth the troubles I say.
Expensive. Well, sure. But you're free to choose what to spend your money on, but unless you think that the hobby ain't worth the money then why are you in it at the first place?
Unpainted models? Your own or others? Painting is a party of this hobby and I say you might aswell enjoy that part aswell. Like I said earlier, having your army lined up and painted can make you feel pride. You've put time, money and work into your army - enjoy it!
"-If you have a narrative for your games, you have a lot more inspiration for making cool terrain."
I don't understand how this would affect anything. A narrative battle sure wouldn't inspire me to make any cool terrain atleast. I guess it varies from person to person.
"-narrative gaming means practically no cheesyness."
We play alot of campaigns at my club. Narrative gaming is possible in 40k, it just takes a bit more work to organize, but it's all fun.
"-Fewer models are a lot easier to transport."
I'll give you that one. But as I said earlier. Big armies and big battles has it's own charm.
"-Those games are MADE for interesting Narrative play."
What's saying 40k isn't? Just because it's possible and often done doesn't mean it isn't made for it. As I said before, it just takes a bit more work to organize, but I think it's alot of fun to plan scenarios and discuss rules.
"-Fewer models means bye bye to painting rank and file! YES!"
Again, as I said before, there are ways to avoid rank and file painting. Try another army, try another game, try another unit...
"-fewer models means shorter games. & Every Mordheim battle I've had has been just as fun as the warhammer games I've had, and you can play three mordheim games in the time of one warhammer battle."
Yet again, what about us who'd rather play longer games? It's up to you to choose. Should you start playing Mordheim instead of 40k? I don't know, which do you like the best? If you've having just as fun playing either of them then why not alternate? I mean, it's like me asking you if I should stop playing Ragnarok Online and start playing Unreal Tournament instead. You don't know me and I don't know you, but I say one thing, if you need persuasion to play a game you don't sound motivated enough to play in the first place.
Sorry if I came off a bit cranky, but it's been 17 hours since I woke up and now it's to early in the morning to go to bed.
Thanks for the long and serious reply. You didn't sound cranky .
I agree with you about the kids and geeks issue, there's nothing to do about it, they're part of the hobby. And if I made the effort, I could find better smelling people to play with. I don't have anything against geekiness in general, warhammer in itself is geeky and I like it. But there are types of geeks. I like those geeks that are into art, history and fantasy (like myself), you know the 'fluff geeks'. But I'm not too fond of those geeks that only care about statistics, winning and numbers. Those with unpainted cheesy armies, those who always argue about rules.
I can't see how you can enjoy painting and assembling a 100 guardsmen. Yes, I'd rather paint and make a hundred different conversions. Like you said, this is all about individual preferences. I have a great need to express myself creatively, and it was all the opportunities for creativity that attracted me the most to the 40k and warhammer universe. Still, it's true that a huge army with a uniform colorscheme looks just awesome on the shelf and on the tabletop. But all the work to achieve it makes me wonder if it's worth it. That's why I'm interested in those games with fewer models, because they focus on induviduals and conversions.
The worst thing about all the time a 40k battle takes, isn't the battle itself, because I also think long battles are fun. The problem is that the long time span of a battle makes it hard to start a game. I come home from school or work or whatever, feeling a little tired. Then my friend asks me if I want to play, and I say no because I don't feel that I have the energy to play for five hours. I just want to relax a bit. All the trouble with transporting the army and terrain is a big factor in this. I guess if I was part of a club close to home where everything was ready exept the armies, It would be much easier to start games. When on a tournament three or four battles a day is no problem, but on regular weekdays, I'm hard to motivate. I realise that this isn't a common problem, it's just me. I'm easier to motivate to smaller games.
When mentioning unpainted models as something I don't like, I'm refering to playing against people with unpainted models. I always paint my own. Wargames seems like a waste of money to me if you don't like to paint.
Your lucky to have a club that does lots of campains, I've played almost no narrative battles with the club I sometimes visit. Maybe I'll have to run a campain myself. Hmm.. Doesn't sound too bad.
What I said about narrative play inspiring terrainmaking is quite simple. If you have an idea of where you're fighting, why you're fighting and what happened before the battle, you get ideas for what terrain is appropriate. If your battles are connected to fluff, you have some fluff for what terrain to make as well. I believe this improves the quality of the terrain.
I'm still convinced that those few model games suit creative gamers better. They give you more time to convert models and make terrain and fluff.
Ave Dominus Nox!
Oh, well I can understand that it bothers you if they're having trouble with their personal hygeine. Seriously, if I played an opponent like that I would tell him straight to his face that he smells bad. I've always prefered a blunt honesty when it comes to dealing with people, it tends to have the quickest effect.Originally Posted by Absoluthor
As for cheesy unpainted armies, well with a bit or work that could be fixed too. For instance, at our club we've got a rule. I your painting ain't making progress between the meetings you're not playing next week. It's not a rare sight to see a few unpainted models at my club, sometime a whole squad. Next week however that whole squad is partially painted or else he won't be playing. We sometimes make exceptions though since it may be a little harsh not letting people play for not painting *every* week. But an model that's been black for a month or more ain't allowed, unless ofcourse some extremely time consuming conversion is taking place. :pWell the thing is, I'll give them different stances, some are converted into sitting, some look like they're running, others are standing still taking aim, some have grenades at their belts, other have waterbottles, the next one has a beltknife, some have a combination of that, some are carrying vox casters, flamers, grenade launchers, plasmaguns, meltaguns, some have laspistols and a chainsword, some are not wearing their helmets and some have their helmet hanging by their belt or behind their neck. There are hundreds of combinations to make, and I haven't even mentioned the variations in painting yet.Originally Posted by Absoluthor
My point is, they're not exactly the same really, besides, I don't paint my troops one at a time. I paint a squad, one night painting all the cloth, the next i'll highlight it and start on the face, I don't see them as one model after the next. I see a squad and all the variations in that squad makes it different from the previous one, so I don't really get tired of painting the same models time and time again.I suppose it varies from person to person then. When I come home from school or work, tired I would throw myself at a chance to get a 40k game started. I don't know, you've probably been in this hobby for longer than I have and might not think it's as fun as it was when you started. I spend most of my off hours being bored though, so that might explain it.Originally Posted by AbsoluthorWell, as I said above, our club has kindof solved problems with this. Poke fun at them untill they pick that darned brush up I say.Originally Posted by AbsoluthorIt might seem like a pain organizing a large scale campaign, but I think it's alot of fun planning different scenarios in advance, discussing it with the others. Say that the first mission is a defence mission, you're supposed to defend a powerplant that powers a city. Your opponent manages to destroy the powerplant and as a result the next battle that takes place in the city will be a nightfight scenario because there are no lights. However if you win the battle and the powerplant is safe, the next battle will be a counterpush where the defenders are trying a sortie to open upp passage back to friendly lines, you're assaulting the enemy entrenchments hoping to end the siege of the city or something like that. It was just a quick example that was floating around at the top of my mind.Originally Posted by AbsoluthorAh, now I see what you mean. I suppose that in preparation of the above scenario we'd need a powerplant, and following that we'd need some form of entrenched position terrain or a few cityfight tiles. Personally I usually just take a look at what terrain we have and try to figure out what's missing.Originally Posted by AbsoluthorI'd say this depends on how much time you have. The impression I get from you is that you seem to prefer the smaller games mainly because they take less time. There is plenty of room for creativity, conversion, terrainmaking and fluff in the bigger games IMO. Sure it takes longer time to play a game and get an army painted and ready, so if you don't think you've got the time then stick to the smaller games then. Afterall, it's your time spend it doing what you think is the most fun.Originally Posted by Absoluthor
If you spend the next few weeks playing Mordheim then 40k might seem like more fun when you get the time for a big game.