Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I've been doing a little bit of rereading my posts and I noticed a personal trend. I tend to "bash" GW quite a bit. I'm sure that other people have noticed it too, and some people probably wonder why I bother playing a game that I consider to have so many faults.
Well, folks, I have a reason for being so critical of GW: For all it's faults, it is still my favorite wargame. It has been my favorite throughout an 18 year period that I've been playing and I doubt that it will change, even though I really like Warmachine and other games.
I'm critical because I love. When I see that GW is performing below their usually high standards or when I see something that really needs to be addressed, then I open my mouth and say it.
When GW does a couple of lines of incredibly awesome models (Witch Hunters, Wood Elves, Ogre Kingdoms) and then they release a model or army that is insanely below their standards (Vespids, The ENTIRE Dark Eldar army), then I feel it is necessary to say "Hey, look, you're slipping. Pick it back up".
Aside from modeling, I also like to point out silly rules that do nothing but frustrate me, even if they are made for simplicities sake. It's really not that hard to differentiate between losing a Daemonic Invulnerable Save from the Psycannon, while not losing other invulnerable saves. It's really not. Why does an assassin not get a dodge save? If I can remember it at nearly 30 years old, then certainly these new players at age 13 can remember it better than me with their young absorbant minds.
Then, when they do or say something stupid, I'm not one of the people to overlook it. When someone asked GW "Why can't we stand and shoot when getting charged in 40k?" GW's reply was that the Hand to Hand combat reflected shots being fired. Well, if it reflects shots being fired, then I would really like to hit at ST 5 with my pulse rifles instead of ST 3. I mean, come on, if I'm shooting it's not like the ST of my weapon suddenly drops at close range. That's just silly.
Does anyone else agree with me that we need to let our voice be known when we see issues with our favorite game? Perhaps I'm being too harsh and I should let stupid explanations go through one ear and out the other, but I think that I'm doing them a favor and keeping them on their toes. (If they even read message boards like this :rolleyes: )
If anyone from GW reads this: I got nothin but love for ya BUT, when I see something stupid, then I'm going to do the same thing I do with my kids. I'm going to point it out and say, "Hey, that's not really a good idea, you know? Perhaps you should rethink that one."
I agree Hourglass,
If we'd just sit and idly nod our heads at everything they released...only raising our voices when we saw something cool or when something was so insanely broken and bad that it needs reworking...NOW! *cough* DE *cough cough flem* then they'd never know exactly what we like.
We need to tell them if this is nice, that is not so nice...whether the new packaging is good, bad, ugly, sexy etc. This way alot of feedback is generated, positive, negative and neutral which is vital for a corporation like this...that is, if they ever read and take heed.
And yes, I think sometimes GW needs a decent bash so they'll look around them and see the fans lying on the ground...gripping their intestines as something vile crawls from their factory lines or drips from their pens onto our beloved WD.
So...bash and bash good Hourglass but remember...GW needs a little lovin' every now and again... :hump:
*Gets wrong...just wrong thoughts about resin molds *
Your fluffraping hurts my eyes. - TehDarkPredator
I am guilty of the same thing H0urg1ass, and have even been called to account for it several times over the year I've been on this forum by people saying "if you don't like it don't play it!"
I refuse to accept that brainless fanboy reaction as even being a valid argument. Obviously I like it, otherwise I wouldn't play it. The GW games have good background and (in most cases) good models that capture my imagination and I enjoy painting. I have played them for years and will keep doing so. BUT for all that there are faults, as there are with everything.
Nothing and no-one is perfect, but by attempting to rectify faults when we see them we get closer to, if not perfection, then a better product every time. People who believe GW above criticism because they enjoy their games are not being responsible consumers and are making it worse for the rest of us.
I believe that "If you aren't happy get out" is not the way to approach anything. I honestly think that GW has a responsibility towards its customers. That's right, they OWE us (I am aware that alot of people don't agree with this.) They owe us because we are their customers, we pay good money for their products so have a right to get what they promise us when we pay. I am expecting a good quality game with few bugs and good qaulity models. If I don't get this I have a right to complain because that is what they purport to provide. This is why I am annoyed by GW release policy, their secrecy about which codex and models are coming next is clearly just an attack on the consumer. Other companies will tell you what they have coming up for the next year and will stick to it, so you can plan your purchases. GW will drop hints and then release something totally different. How many people would have held off buying the old terminator models if they'd known a year in advance that the GW team were working on new termies? Now these people are stuck with lousy terminators. It's unethical I tells ye!
I didn't mean to get on a high horse about my personal pet hates of GW but this thread is kind of asking for it. I think many GW hobbyists behave as if GW and their customers are part of one big happy family, whereas GW corporate policy, like any successful business nowadays, clearly sees the situation as a battle between them and their consumers with our money as the prize. I think it's perfectly acceptable for us to fight back by doing the only thing we can, complain to them.
Doesn't mean I hate warhammer. I am 90% happy with my GW experience, what's wrong with trying to make it 95%?
*dismounts from high horse*
EDIT: One of the reasons I think it's OK to criticize GW is that they make it very difficult to criticize them openly in any way. Ever noticed that WD is one of the only gaming magazines in the world (certainly the only one I can think of) that doesn't print letters from readers?
Last edited by Kahoolin; October 5th, 2005 at 00:49.
I also am a GW basher. In the last few months I've gotten some bad quality models and I've gotten really frustrated. I also get extrmely frustrated when I see other armies fielding these amazing units and my space martines are run down like bread on butter. All these other armies getting an awesome tune up while the Blood Angels havent had something cool in a while. Like, everyone else gets a special tactical squad, but not blood angels. I really really like GW models and products but it just seems sometimes we the players are getting the end of a very short stick called profit. But then again I maybe wrong and maybe GW is trying their hardest. Regardless of that I hope GW continues Warhammer 40000 and I will continue to suppourt their buisness. *whispering in low tone* Please Blood Angels codex and new units next....please please please
W-1 L-0 D-0
I positively love GW products, fluff, everything, except the price and the attitude of the company. holy crap the forums over there are like the soviet union of old. i am suprised they dn't send a squad of troops to your house to take you to the Gulags if you make an anti GW comment there. I have recently started warmachine. not sure if that will keep me occupied or not, i will probably end up getting loads of GW anyway. I am starting Nids and Skaven. Although i am holding off til i get my Cryx started up. i'd like to think they'll see the like ans their 98% of the market share sliding over to privater press and mongoose publishing, but i think i'll sooner see a group of people playing pick up stix with their buttcheeks. alas, i digress. once again hourglass, i agree with you 100%.
I agree completely i was just wondering why are the prices so high on the models i know how much molds cost to make and the material its made of certainly cannot be that costly to produce but im sure if they lowered the rpice just a few dollars they would make more business and how come with al the money they make currently they dont have models and units coming out alot quicker. For instance Necrons, Tau, Imperial guard and other armies are very few in what you can choose. By this I mean the game I think would be alot better if instead of just having shock troops make more models and expand the game more not just have it sit there and keep redoing the same model a thousand times over.
Also i agree as much as one can with how the entire Dark Eldar line looks.
I couldn't agree more and I have an example that I always refer to when it comes to us being owed. A couple of years ago GW made one of the biggest blunders they have ever made since they killed off the Squats.I honestly think that GW has a responsibility towards its customers. That's right, they OWE us (I am aware that alot of people don't agree with this.) They owe us because we are their customers, we pay good money for their products so have a right to get what they promise us when we pay
The new CSM codex came out and had Obliterators listed as being TO 5. Everyone thought that was awesome (And it WAS!) so every single person I know that had a CSM army went out and bought a few of them at USD $15.00 per model. A year later GW comes out in a chapter approved and says "Ooops, that was a typo, the Obliterators are actually supposed to be TO 4". I called bull****. No one misses a typo for a year. No one.
What really happened was that they made a good model, that was just a little bit too good according to non-CSM players because it couldn't be insta killed with cheesy hidden powerfists. So all of the non-CSM people started whining and whining about it until they came out and said they made a mistake.
In my opinion their mistake was lying about why they changed it. Of course they meant it to be TO 5 when they released it. What they should have said when they changed it was "Too many non-CSM people are whining like little biatches so we decided to change the stats". That one act lowered my estimation of GW by about a thousand points when I saw it happen.
So my point is that I've got half a dozen friends who have all shelved their $15.00 dollar models that they thought were so great, but got screwed on in the end. GW owes them for that, but it won't ever happen.
NOTE: I am not, nor will I ever be a CSM player. It doesn't appeal to me in the least, but I still think that Obliterators should have TO 5. In fact, I think that Ogryn should have TO 5 too, but that's another story for another thread.
Last edited by H0urg1ass; October 5th, 2005 at 04:33.
This is a great thread.
One thing I would add is that GW is a coorporation, and is hindered by lack of resources, and limited budgets like all of the coorporite world, I know, I from it. They are trying to maximize profits to give there shareholders the highest rate of return they can. They are driven more by this fact than they are to give the public the absolute best game possible.
Saying this, I think GW does a fabulous job in giving us the best game possible. It is not perfect, but overall the game is good, lots of diversity, and the models for the most part (Catachens excluded) are very high quality. I also think they are upgrading as they go, look at the new Terminators, Nid Creatures, Kaskrin Stormies, and yes they are making new mistakes. Perhaps that is why they change things like Obliteraters, because they realize that sometimes they do make mistakes as the go, look at Techpriest for an example. They realized that Hellhounds were broke in the old IG dex, and made a good for the points tank with new one. I think they change the game so that no army has a large advantage over any other army. The last Space Marine codex is an example of this. Space Marines were slipping a bit compaired to some others, so they gave them a definate boost. Was it a little too much, maybe, we'll see.
Do I think we have the right to critisize and complain when we see standards slipping? Absolutely! I think GW does listen, and if it is a smart company, and I think it is, they would have a person occasionally monitor websites to judge "feel" of what their customer base is thinking.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
I totally agree H0urg1ass, one of the particularly annoying things about GW's policy is that they never admit a mistake. It's ridiculous.
I would have ALOT more respect for them if they said something like: "After listening to you, the players, we have decided to change this rule in accordance with your many suggestions. The old rules were a little unbalanced but hopefully this should fix things up. Happy gaming!"
How much better is that than "we NEVER make mistakes in game balance. EVER. Any percieved mistakes are because we accidentally made a typo but what we MEANT was for it to be like this, obviously." With the added implication that if it's not a typo then it's you, the player who has a problem, not us the designers. Never us.
Methinks they take us for imbeciles. If anyone from GW is reading this, we don't want you to be perfect, we want you to stop claiming that you ARE perfect. And allow us to actually have a voice. It's really, really frustrating.
That's why I hang out here instead of on the GW forums, I can talk about GW honestly without being banned for telling the truth.
Lots of salient points hereâ€¦Iâ€™ll try to interject something new.
Games Workshop does not make any guarantees. So without a guarantee of some sort, the default policy is â€śCaveat Emptor,â€? or â€ślet the buyer beware.â€?
The best way to speak is with our wallets.
I think Hourg1assâ€™s argument is that we players have a tacit â€śgood faithâ€? agreement with games workshop. We purchase a game, expecting it to be fair and balanced. And we build armies, expecting them to be fair and balanced. But â€śCodex Creepâ€? effectively prevents that outcome.
I loathe the way GW explains their rules. Every rule in the book has a little â€ścreative writingâ€? that tries to describe what the rule represents, like the assault phase example given above. Why not just draw up a set of rules and organization to the game, validated by play-testing, and leave it at that?
Why does a Bishop (in chess) move on a diagonal line? Who cares! It does because thatâ€™s the rules of Chess.
Why canâ€™t I stand and shoot in 40K? Because you canâ€™t! Thatâ€™s the rules of the game. That argument makes more sense to me than anexplation of what goes on in â€śflufflandâ€? during the assault phase.
It is very important for GW to get feedback from us. But it is important to remember that GW may not be paying attention. When was the last time that the game developers and sculptors, or one of their supervisors jumped on a Forum (even the GW Forums) and started a discussion with the players? How my times do people get to have substantial conversations with these guts at a Game Day? Is it even feasible? How does one separate the critical thinkers from the fanboyz? How does GW ensure that their playtesting and other inputs are unbiased?
Finally, the best and fairest games in the world can be described mathematically and algorithmically. Without that, it takes years of tweaks and adjustments to make things fair...sound familiar?
When you can't run, you crawl. And when you can't crawl, find someone to carry you.