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Thread: Cheesy?

  1. #1
    Member 74CM's Avatar
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    Cheesy?

    People refer to some army list's like the notorious Iron warriors to be cheesy... isn't a game's main purpose there to be won. Yes many people say we have to enjoy a game of 40k which I do agree with but at the end of the day are we not all here to build the strongest meanest army there is? My main goal is to build the strongest army possible and I respect any opponent which does the same. Referring to his army as cheesy is just an excuse to say that I am not good enough to beat him fair and square...

    Why do people post treads on these forums? 99% percent of the treads on this site is to get advice on building better army's "Cheesy army's" This proves my point. We are all here to build cheesy army's. The only difference is that some are upset because the army they chose to spent money and time on is not Strong "Cheesy" enough

    Am I wrong in saying this?... and no I don't play Iron warriors


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    Son of LO darkreever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 74CM
    isn't a game's main purpose there to be won...
    ...Am I wrong in saying this?... and no I don't play Iron warriors
    Absolutely, the vast majority of members here for example, play to win but many play to have fun. Winning does not always equal having fun, or else someone will always walk away unhappy.

    If the main purpose of the game was to win, then everyone would have good weapons that murder anyone they face and no downsides or anything that makes things difficult because that would make it harder to win. Its not the main purpose of the game, the main purpose is what you choose it to be. Some choose to win and only win, some to have fun, some to do nothing more than be a challange, others to mix or do what they want.

    Some members prefer to play solely to have fun, using elements from their armies that are as far from competative and surefire to win as possible, or simply use what they like or what fits into their armies theme.

    Take my love, take my land, take me to where I cannot stand; I don't care I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.

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    Senior Member dcawrest202's Avatar
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    What you say is wrong for many people. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone's goal in this hobby is to be the most dominant gamer out there. For many people, becoming a prolific versitile painter is their goal. Some play just because they like the minis. For some people, like myself, their favorite part of the hobby is making terrain. My goal is to be able to make the best terrain that I can, and have people take a look at it and say, "wow, thats amazing stuff." While I do try and and win games, that isn't all I focus on. Cheesiness occurs when someone sacrifices the fun that comes with competitive gaming in order to exploit a loophole, or something similar, to create an ultra powerful army. IMO, a game won w/o exploiting loopholes is more satisfying than one with exploiting loopholes. Also you're wrong on the 99% factoid. Take a look around these forums and you will see threads on everything, not just building armies. It's true that there is quite a bit of talk on that subject, but how can you say that people don't talk a huge amount about fluff. Heck theres even a fluff master clan. People care about the fluffiness, the look, and the general fun factor of their armies just as much as the gaming potential. I, for example, have an adeptus mechanicus army. Not the best gaming army list out there (I used Lost and the Damned rules), but they look damn good, and its an extremely fluffy characterful list. So cheesiness does infact occur when people forget about the other aspects of the hobby, and army building, to the point where playing games becomes a chore.
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    Every few months a thread like this comes up where someone starts a debate on "cheesey armies".

    From my standpoint, I've summed it up like this (this is only the way I see it, I'm not saying it is universally true):

    - the game (any wargame) is meant to be a fun contest between players; a contest always involves competition and people trying to win, so the primary goal of Warhammer or 40k is "to have fun during the game AND try to win"

    - "Cheesey" armies are generally seen to be ones that are effective at winning, but not at having fun...they are either too good at winning or frustrate the opponent(s) to the point where they are no longer having fun in the game

    - FAR TOO MANY players call "cheese" where none exists...usually these people are just sore losers who can only have fun when they are dominating their opponents (in essence, they have no problem with using "cheese", so long as they are the ones doing it); these false cheese-criers can usually be seen calling an individual unit "cheesey", such as "Man, that Wraithlord is SO cheese, look it just killed 10 of my marines over 3 turns...totally unbalanced!"; in reality, these people just can't handle facing the facts that they are just incompetent to defend against regular tactics or the regular strengths of armies that GW intended all to have. Every single army has a few uber units (admittedly, some more than others, and some have powerful combinations that consistently work well together)

    - Ideally, both players should honour the game and one another by trying hard to win, yet not going overboard to the point of sapping the fun or frustrating their opponent

    - In my opinion, "cheese" largely doesn't exist, HOWEVER it can rear its head when players are obviously powergaming in excess...an example is when they take a boring army list with tons of repetition and redundancy; army lists with the minimum amount of weak units (such as 2 5-man squads of basic troops) followed by as many, identically equipped squads of the strongest troops (such as having 3 identical assault Marine squads, or 3 identically equipped Wraithlords, etc.); these powergamers would take as many of the strongest troops as they could, and often only stop because the army list restrictions get in their way (the only reason they don't take 6 identical Wraithlords is because they legally can't); those people suck the fun out of the game; real cheese-masters also betray themselves when they say something like "Why would you take missile launchers when lascannons are so much better? You're army should be full of Lascannons and have absolutely no Missile launchers if you want to win."

    So, to re-cap:
    - cheese is often pointed out where none exists and the person doing so is just either a poor-sport or sore-loser
    - when cheese does exist, it is usually means the player has taken the maximum amount of whatever unit in an army is universally seen to be the strongest, while minimizing the amount of weaker units
    - when games are consistently one-sided, you or your opponent may have a cheesey list (although, it could also mean that one of you is just really bad or really good at tactics and strategy)
    - if the fun is gone, for one or both players, what's the point? Something has to change (unless the person not having fun is just a sore-loser who can only have fun while winning...in that case, ignore their discomfort and poke fun at how badly they're doing to get under their skin )

    Rant over.
    Last edited by Houston; August 17th, 2006 at 18:56.

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    Senior Member dcawrest202's Avatar
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    What you say is wrong for many people. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone's goal in this hobby is to be the most dominant gamer out there. For many people, becoming a prolific versitile painter is their goal. Some play just because they like the minis. For some people, like myself, their favorite part of the hobby is making terrain. My goal is to be able to make the best terrain that I can, and have people take a look at it and say, "wow, thats amazing stuff." While I do try and and win games, that isn't all I focus on. Cheesiness occurs when someone sacrifices the fun that comes with competitive gaming in order to exploit a loophole, or something similar, to create an ultra powerful army. IMO, a game won w/o exploiting loopholes is more satisfying than one with exploiting loopholes. Also you're wrong on the 99% factoid. Take a look around these forums and you will see threads on everything, not just building armies. It's true that there is quite a bit of talk on that subject, but how can you say that people don't talk a huge amount about fluff. Heck theres even a fluff master clan. People care about the fluffiness, the look, and the general fun factor of their armies just as much as the gaming potential. I, for example, have an adeptus mechanicus army. Not the best gaming army list out there (I used Lost and the Damned rules), but they look damn good, and its an extremely fluffy characterful list. So cheesiness does infact occur when people forget about the other aspects of the hobby, and army building, to the point where playing games becomes a chore.

    MOD NOTE: This post has been moved from the double posted topic. Hense why it might be out of place.
    Thanks,
    Toastee
    Last edited by Toastee; August 18th, 2006 at 00:36.
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    Senior Member Deek's Avatar
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    I agree with dracrest. I do not always play to win. Yes it is nice when i do, but i dont care if i dont. I was once a "power gamer" but i realised that it wasnt fun cause my frineds stopped playing. Now i make fun lists, like daemonhunters without any grey knights, Do i hear u say insane but no i can be done and is fun. Anywho i love to play the game, the outcome of the game really doesnt matter. Im more competetive about things that actually mattter, like football or futbol de nortamericano. (i think i spelled that right)

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    Did someone say... Space Marines?

    /snickers

    I usually associate cheesy with special rules that come up suddenly or command squads with 24 Special Characters.

    On a more serious note.

    I do know that this debate of cheesy stuff has come up in lots of discussion before around where I live but usually it rotates around specific armies. Space Morons, Necrons, Sisters of Battle, Tau and IGs.

    Suck it up. Its not fair. Life never is. Point costs on models, gear and equipment may not be equal but the randomness of die rolls favors no one. Player skill and lack there of is not the fault of the army being played.

    I have watched a 1500 point Nid army EAT a 3000 point Tau army for lunch, dinner and midnight snack in less than 5 turns. I have also watched a single stupid Librarian resist every attack that was thrown at him for 6 turns while everything else in the SMoron army was dead. (He cheated though, Iron Halo/Adamantine Cloak boy!)

    Some armies are better geared and capable of reacting and handling a wide variety foes while some armies are suited to specific tasks and to many alterations places them in a bad spot but when it goes their way... they pwn their way.

    Do some Codex's need help? Hell yes! I could give you a list of problems I have with the Necron army. I still play them. I lose more than win but I love the fluff and I love to play.

    So what have we learned today?

    Suck it up!

    Eventually one day... maybe we will all have the love and affection that Space Morons get. :yes:

    Peace!

  9. #8
    Has a monkey! Imperialis_Dominatus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlorlich
    Eventually one day... maybe we will all have the love and affection that Space Morons get. :yes:
    Hahah, hahah... no, I don't think so .

    But, really, cheese exists but has been overblown by the masses. Rather than being a rare monster that rarely pokes it's head out of Beardy Forest, it seems that people see it as some omniscient evil spirit determined to permeate every army list but their own...:rolleyes:

    Of course, I could start an argument over what armies have what level of cheese potential, but I will resist that urge.

    Oh, and 74CM? You really shouldn't post two threads with the same topic, so close together, with almost the same title. Grephaun or someone will eat you.

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    Member craftman2's Avatar
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    Yeah, Warhammer is a hobby and there's so much more to it than winning. Why else would we shell out the $$ for little models that we have to spend time assembling and painting, when we could instead pay $40 for a computer game and play online?

    There is something to be said for creating a winning army, and yes, there are far more cries of "cheese" against these armies than there are actual cheesy examples, but there is a difference between taking advantage of an army's strengths and exploiting a rules quirk. Even though that Iron Warriors army or Eldar army w/ 3 Wraithlords is giving you a lot of problems, it's easy to exploit because the army has obvious glaring weaknessess (like too much shooting and not enough cc, or no mobility, or whatever).

    I see cheese as being more of exploiting gameplay rules than army composition. The Tau "Fish of Fury" tactic is sometimes called cheesy (I'm not sure it really is, but I'll use it for my example). Folks claim that using the Devilfish and a Fire Warrior squad in that manner is exploitive rather than sporting. Essentially, the FoF amounts to a "dirty trick" that takes advantage of the intricacies of the rules.

    I don't give a damn, honestly. I play a well-balanced army and I haven't faced any "cheesy" army that I couldn't overcome with a solid strategy and a little luck.

  11. #10
    is Alpharius FabricatorGeneralMike's Avatar
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    Personally for me, I havent played in a while. So im not 'up' on the new power army that people are buying and exploiting. But for me the game has always been about converting and painting. I love making a army that is unique to me. I love it when I walk into a game store and pull my army out and people go " yep thats mikes army" I love making the figures just the way that I want them. Right now im playing a Adeptus Mechanicus army using the IG rules. Slowly but shurly im getting it done, it takes time sence im rather fussy about my figs. Back when I did play in like Rt and 2nd edition days.... the power army back in RT days was the hariquins. They just dimolished everything around them. I played marines back then and gawds if some one pulled out a harly army, I just about walked away it really was that bad. in 2nd edition when the codex's first started comming out it was the SpaceWolves. it was GW's first codex so it was kind of a test run. and they failed miserbly with it. 5 wolf-guard termies with assult cannons chainfists and cyclone missle launchers.... ya they could of done a little better I reckons.... but well, you figure out how to get around it and you become better at the game. also what alot of people dont do is look over there opponets army list. I dont know how many times ive done that and been like.... ummm thats not legal... and for alot of people its honest mistakes .... especially noobs to the game. we where all there once you know. we all once walked into a GW or a RogueTrader store and where like WTF is this...and drooled like homer simpson thinking about porkchops... I know I did. and as someone said in a post back there a bit, I used to powergame but people stop playing againsted me...that usualy happens... this game is ment to be fun, and altho alot of people think fun = winning, thats not always the case. Personally I like beating the odds and winning againsted a army or senero im not supposted to win. so what if I get trashed im supposed to get trashed...but when you win its just that much better...oh so much better .... basically the game is what you make of it. some people just want to enter turnies and kick ass, all the power to them, some people just want to be the best painters out there, some just want to have the most unique army out there... its what you want out of the hobby, and its what you put into it, put in crap you get crap...put in some effort and you will be very rewarded I think personally ... =o] just my 2 cents on it, from a 16 year vet
    FluffMaster on a mission to turn people to the Sisters of battle, yes folks it's all about SoB squads in Repressors with lots of flamer templates for the win.

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