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First of all, I hope this is in the right thread.
Secondly, I'm sick of people saying how certain units and wargear are completely "useless". If it was completely useless, then it wouldn't be in the game. Ogryns, grenade launchers, pariahs, traitor squads, daemonic fire... just a few to name.
In this thread, people who use these shunned items, or feel that they are worth something, can explain when they might be useful.
The rules are...
1) You can't say it's worthless, that goes against the entire point of this thread
2) You cannot depend on amazing dice rolls. Dumb luck should not be a factor because people shouldn't be depending on it when creating their armies.
3) You can explain the uses of any unit or item in the 40K game, however it should be based on an item or unit that actually has been considered "useless" by some of our peers (I don't think anyone has called necron russurection orb useless)
I'll give an example.
Firearms in LaTD mutant squads are useless... WRONG!
Firearms in mutant squads are free! If you add them, it does not take away any of the benefits already given to them. In a meatgrinder mission, who cares how many of your mutants die so long as they take down the enemy in any way possible (even by killing themselves more than the enemy).
Also, say the enemy HQ is about to pounce on your wimpy traitor squad who has the objective. What do you do? You fire 20 to 30 (and that's if you're not in rapid fire range) shots all S4 straight at the bloke. There's a chance the commander will be a warp-fiery mess, if not at least a wound or two lighter.
Now it's your turn. Fire away.
I am heading off to the Peace Corps. It is bery likely I will not be back. Good luck to all of you endeavors.
First of all, nothing in 40k has ever been deemed useless, just useless as far as its points cost is concerned.
You have to remember, since half the game is your army list, and your army list is all about getting whats most cost effective for the desired purpose, why get grenade launchers when you could use plasma guns?
Its all about efficiency for the purpose intended.
So, no, a grenade launcher is not useless, because it does kill things. But why buy it when you could get a much more point efficient replacement?
Because of this simple fact, the grenade launcher is in effect...rendered useless (note: I didnt say useless)
Because the grenade launcher can be fired on the move at full range and can take out hordes more efficiently than a plasma gun, its an assault weapon so you can shoot before charging (not that you'd probably want to).
Mandrakes, use them in cities of death and they'll be worth it, not only will they get a 2+ cover save (wow!) but in the missions domination and firesweep, they will be invaluable, just each of the 3 marker models in a different building, so the enemy will be put off taking any of them because he won't know which building you'll leap out of with your mandrake squad, take 3 squads and the decapitator so in effect you get 10 marker models. Brilliant. Use them in cityfight to shield your webway portal haemonculi, they have to grind their way through a wall of 2+ saves before they can dream of shooting the haemonculi. Also, the simple fact that it is fully possible for them to assault a heavy weapons platoon of guardsmen without them ever being able to be shot is brilliant, so, they won't really kill anything in a game, and certainally won't make their points back by slaughtering everyone, but they make their points back through tactical use instead.
Scourges, deepstrike them behind the enemy and use them as a distraction, they hae to choose between moving towards you, or towards the scourges away from you, this ability really shines against black templars players as you can force them to move towards your scourges, by killing one of their squad, their running a race against themselves. Also, with 4 splinter cannons they aren't too shabby at killing hordes, with a xenospasm on the sybarite they can pin the enemy and have a chance of fragging a marine or 2.
Grotesques, use them with your archon against necrons, the archon does all the killing, and this makes the necrons automatically fall back, because they are leadership 10, not fearless, then the archon will automatically wipe them out because his I value is so much higher than theirs that it is impossible for them to get away, just keep them away from destroyers and they'll have a really hard time stopping you from doing it.
Hellions are ok in an assault I guess, but only in an assault and only because of the succubus, nothing else about the squad is any good at all and the reaver jetbikes to every job better than them, their faster, they shoot better, more special weapons, better save, the bounce move, they keep their extra str, extra T, just generally better in every way.
There is a whole bunch of eldar units too that people can do, shining spears, fire prism, jetbikes, rangers apart from alaitoc, support weapon platforms, guardians, dire avengers, wraithguard, swooping hawks etc.......
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Ummm, Alcor you just sort of ignored everything I posted up. This is not a thread to discuss why things are useless, for whatever reason whether it be because of points or alternative items.
This is a thread designed to make both new and veteran gamers think. What you just posted up goes to the root of the problem. People have been led so much into thinking that there is only one way to go that you never see grenade launchers, daemonic fire, etc. It is true that 9 out of 10 times a plasma gun is better, but this thread is designed for gamers to learn what that 1 out of 10 situation is. If you cannot even comprehend of a way to be innovative in including less seen wargear and units, this is not the thread for you.
If you honestly believe that there is an item in 40K that should never be used by any gamer, ever, that there is no circumstance for it, then say so on a different thread please. This is not about number crunching, it is about coming up with new ideas, not saying the old "plasma guns are always superior" way of thinking that this thread is suppose to challenge.
I am heading off to the Peace Corps. It is bery likely I will not be back. Good luck to all of you endeavors.
You are missing my point. You see, if you are going to assault a horde army with IG...well thats just a plain bad idea. And if you are going to sit and shoot with IG, then better to get a heavy bolter or autocannon with the points...Because the grenade launcher can be fired on the move at full range and can take out hordes more efficiently than a plasma gun, its an assault weapon so you can shoot before charging (not that you'd probably want to).
So in effect...still rendered useless....
The 3" inch blast marker!!!
Every time i speak to anybody about this thing, the first words that comeup are useless!
I beg to differ! Most 3" blast markers have a decent strength with a alright ap. The real reason that nobody likes these things are because they say you cant hit anything with them.
HOW can you say this? I've been able to cover up to 5 models with that thing. Plus, on a ratio, you usually have 2:1 more 3 inch blast markers availble.
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I understand the point is to get gamers to think outside the box, but some equipment can be demed not useful in a number of situations. By examining the majority of the situations faced by a army the bonus ( on paper ) of a certain troop type or equipment can be seriously lacking in a game.
Look to the outdated ork codex, the urty syringe will wound about 50% of the time but the docs str has better odds than that against the majority of enemys he might face. yes he can wound a gaurdsman as easily as a carnifex but for the points cost a simple chopper will be much more benifical.
When using the moniker of "useless" it's best to discuss best case scenerios for the Item and the cost vs. a simple solution. ( Ie ork eavy armour has a great save but for the cost and the negatives you could have just bought more boys)
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Thats exactly what I mean: ^^^I understand the point is to get gamers to think outside the box, but some equipment can be demed not useful in a number of situations. By examining the majority of the situations faced by a army the bonus ( on paper ) of a certain troop type or equipment can be seriously lacking in a game.
Useless could mean a number of things depending on context.
Anyways I understand the point of this thread, by all means go on, there are a number of things deemed useless that are far from useless.
But I just had to make that one point, that is all....
Well i have only the experience of using the phariahs and i know that if used correctly the phariahs can be real jems. I mean they can take down a lot of things in cc that many units cant. (terminators come to mind) So, i dont belive there is a useless unit in the game they all have their areas of expertice or have some pros and cons.
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Here's something to think about.
If a man's greatest fear is fear itself, then what does he have to fear?
This forum may have nothing to do with fear, or anything like it, but put that ^ and put it into 40K terms, and you get this:
If a man's greatest fear is to lose itself, then what does he have to lose?
And the answer is... (in this case) the GAME.
And so my point here is that there are many points that need to be examined here:
1. What does the person want to do in a game?
2. What are the positive outcomes for the person?
3. What does he/she have to do to get what he wants?
This can be used in life, but that's pure philosophy. (God, I can't spell!)
Things are deemed "useless" if they don't do something they're supposed to, there's something better out there, or both.
A grenade launcher is not deemed "useless" by plasma guns. In fact, in my opinion, they are about the same. A grenade laucher, to someone who would rather shoot, wants to win, and cares about statistics, finds that a plasma gun makes a grenade launcher obesolete.
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